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Thread: Try telling a bunch of bread makers that gluten is bad (awesome) page 2

  1. #11
    shep68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Him View Post
    As for micro-tears and the like... that's interesting. I'd find it more compelling if I had experienced any symptoms myself, but I'll accept it as somewhat of a theoretical basis (assuming it isn't pseudoscientific BS like a lot of the anti-salt, anti-fat, anti-meat, anti-whatever-I-don't-like ranting).
    In the clip to which I referred he isn't really anti-anything (other than gluten but he's just being instructional). He lays out the biological process by which gliatin gets past your bodies defenses and the bodily response and results. As with anything else of course the viewer can choose to believe it or not. Personally my decision to go primal/paleo had nothing to do with gluten...really didn't know much about it honestly. I now believe it's just a fortunate byproduct of eating this way....no wheat = no gluten products. Whether or not they are "bad" or cause medical issues there appears to be no harm in not eating them either. I eat much more nutritiously now and have lost significant weight and feel better. All wins in my book, but I won't be shoving the lifestyle down anyone's throat if they don't want to hear about it.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by shep68 View Post
    ... Personally my decision to go primal/paleo had nothing to do with gluten...really didn't know much about it honestly. I now believe it's just a fortunate byproduct of eating this way....no wheat = no gluten products. Whether or not they are "bad" or cause medical issues there appears to be no harm in not eating them either. I eat much more nutritiously now and have lost significant weight and feel better. All wins in my book, but I won't be shoving the lifestyle down anyone's throat if they don't want to hear about it.
    That's reasonable.

    I can take or leave gluten myself. I have, and have noticed zero health differences either way. I'm not going to bash someone for choosing to avoid gluten...but by the same token I don't think it's right to bash people for not avoiding gluten either. I think that sort of bashing is exactly the behavior that some vegans practice... they don't eat meat, so they think you are stupid/evil if you do. The world needs less of that, not more.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Him View Post
    Obviously I could be struck by a meteor tonight as I sleep. That's a controllable risk, too. With minor lifestyle changes (moving into a salt mine for example) I could severely reduce the impact of such an impact. Is it worth doing?
    Is it worth it for you? Apparently not, or maybe you'd have already done it. What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Him
    It's a matter of odds. If the odds of being struck by a meteor were 1:1, then yes by all means let's move underground. 1:100... again, probably a good idea to take some preventive steps. 1:1000? It would be smart. 1:10,000? It's not crazy. 1:100,000? Eh.1:1,000,000? No, the risks involved in taking action are probably higher than the risks you are avoiding. 1:1,000,000,000? Now that would be crazy.
    What are the odds that avoiding gluten will hurt me?

    Quote Originally Posted by HIM
    So what are the odds of waking up with a gluten-induced autoimmune disease tomorrow?
    Sounds like less for me than for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Him
    I know a few people with autoimmune diseases so it could happen...but at least two of them tried gluten free and it didn't help so you can't automatically blame gluten anyway.
    You're assuming that because gluten-free didn't cure it that gluten-free couldn't have caused it? I'd argue with that assumption. But you're right, as I said, nothing conclusively could prove that gluten caused it at this point. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it were eventually discovered that most autoimmune issues are caused by increased gut permeability, which we know gluten causes (everybody. Not just those with Celiac's)

    Quote Originally Posted by Him
    It's like lactose intolerance. You may be lactose intolerant. Avoiding dairy may be very important for you. That doesn't mean dairy is a problem for me.
    I'm not actually lactose intolerant, personally. But consuming lactose hasn't been shown to have asymptomatic effects in the gut nearly as conclusively as the consumption of glucose has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Him
    As for micro-tears and the like... that's interesting. I'd find it more compelling if I had experienced any symptoms myself, but I'll accept it as somewhat of a theoretical basis (assuming it isn't pseudoscientific BS like a lot of the anti-salt, anti-fat, anti-meat, anti-whatever-I-don't-like ranting).
    So you're not compelled. Most of us are. We come here to share ideas amongst like-minded people. If you have some type of evidence that we're not privy to or unaware of, please provide it. At the moment, most of the people on this forum are convinced by what we've seen that the prudent course is to avoid gluten.

  4. #14
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    I dunno about gluten free wheat... at least it doesn't have the addictive gliadin unnatural gluten proteins. If all the bread is flat and icky, maybe no one will eat it anyway.
    I actually like dense and flat breads more than the white sponges. But I grew up mostly eating dark rye bread, so I am weird.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Is it worth it for you? Apparently not, or maybe you'd have already done it. What's your point?
    That it's a matter of odds. If the odds of being struck by a meteor were 1:1, then yes by all means let's move underground. 1:100... again, probably a good idea to take some preventive steps. 1:1000? It would be smart. 1:10,000? It's not crazy. 1:100,000? Eh.1:1,000,000? No, the risks involved in taking action are probably higher than the risks you are avoiding. 1:1,000,000,000? Now that would be crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    What are the odds that avoiding gluten will hurt me?
    I don't know your circumstances well enough to answer that. There are people who do not have sufficient funds to get sufficient calories to do the work they need to do in a day. They could be harmed (insufficient calories). There are other people who enjoy bread products in moderation and are healthy. They could be harmed (taking away something they enjoy for no measurable gain).

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Sounds like less for me than for you.
    Well now that is interesting. You think that my disbelief of the theory you are supporting predisposes me to disease. By what mechanism? Bad mental energy???

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    You're assuming that because gluten-free didn't cure it that gluten-free couldn't have caused it? I'd argue with that assumption. But you're right, as I said, nothing conclusively could prove that gluten caused it at this point. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it were eventually discovered that most autoimmune issues are caused by increased gut permeability, which we know gluten causes (everybody. Not just those with Celiac's)
    You are right, gluten-free could very well have caused it. I don't know. What I am assuming that no particularly strong evidence of public health concerns surrounding gluten exist because whenever there is even a shred of evidence...or anything that can be interpreted as evidence, of public health concerns around a food, e.g. cholesterol and eggs/meat, blood pressure and salt, biological contamination and meat/vegetable/dairy supply, mercury and sea food, nitrates and preserved foods, et cetera ad nausium, it becomes a major political issue and laws get passed/people try to regulate our food supply. I don't see that happening here, therefore there isn't enough evidence to create any potential power for people to grab.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    I'm not actually lactose intolerant, personally. But consuming lactose hasn't been shown to have asymptomatic effects in the gut nearly as conclusively as the consumption of glucose has.
    I didn't think you were lactose intolerant. I was using the rhetorical you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    So you're not compelled. Most of us are. We come here to share ideas amongst like-minded people. If you have some type of evidence that we're not privy to or unaware of, please provide it. At the moment, most of the people on this forum are convinced by what we've seen that the prudent course is to avoid gluten.
    Actually, this particular thread looked like someone came here to bash people on another forum.

  6. #16
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    It's just easier to give it up. (As in, I'm going to have a Po' Boy during Superbowl, but wheat isn't anything I want to eat on a regular basis.) This is one change that I didn't/don't really feel when I'm not eating it, but the time when I took a three day break from primal (pizza, pasta, dontcha know), I felt it on the fourth day. I'm not particularly sensitive, but I'm not particularly sensitive to anything. It's just one of those things. From my reading, it doesn't look like grains/gluten are great for you, and I can only eat so much food in a day, so why waste it on such a vapid food?

    Some of my best friends eat bread. heh.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoanieL View Post
    It's just easier to give it up ... and I can only eat so much food in a day, so why waste it on such a vapid food?
    That's my thought, 100%. I stopped eating bread, rice, beans, etc because I realized I don't need to pad my food with cheap calories. I can also buy into the carb argument, or at least a subset of the carb arguments. Haven't noticed any direct difference in my health from dropping grain except it's harder to sop up meat juice. Mine isn't the only reason of course, and I can only speak for my own experience, but that's kinda the point: like milk, and probably a lot of other foods, it isn't one-size-fits-all. A food I find delicious, like shrimp, may be a health risk for someone else and vice versa.

  8. #18
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    I suspect the modern wheat will be the next Big Tobacco. Yup, not all smokers and chewers get cancer, emphasima or other tobacco related illnesses. But a lot do. And I suspect that more studies will be done on wheat and diabetes and slowly the proof will come in, and things will change. And studies on autism, learning disabilities and a whole host of other things will help change attitudes.

    But, look how long it took to change views about tobacco. When it first came to England people were worried then. It took centuries, not decades, to make it be "evil" and yet, people still use it.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Him View Post
    Isn't gluten one of those "trust your body" and YMMV things?

    I've eaten gluten-laden bread for decades. I've baked. I've also gone though long periods without gluten (zero wheat of any kind) not because of paleo or anything like that but because I needed cheap food that stored well and cooked without fancy tools. Rice fit the bill, so I ate lots of rice.
    Gluten is in a hell of a lot of processed and packaged foods these day, just ask any celiac trying to find "convenience" foods.
    How did you find your way onto this forum? Most people arrive via Mark's blog, after reading his book, or through already having an interest in paleo / ancestral health, which are essentially (if not completely) grain and especially gluten free diets (diet as in way of eating, not particularly a way if losing weight).

    Have you read this, or this?

    I never realised that gluten was causing me issues until I completely removed it from my diet. Eating it never caused me any symptoms, but eating other foods certainly did. But once I stopped eating gluten, the other, more nutritious foods (eg. Veggies, onion, garlic) no longer were an issue for me.

    Now I can (but rarely do) eat some gluten containing products, but if I have them too often I start to experience problems digesting those other foods again.
    If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

    Quote Originally Posted by tfarny View Post
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misabi View Post
    Gluten is in a hell of a lot of processed and packaged foods these day, just ask any celiac trying to find "convenience" foods.
    How did you find your way onto this forum?
    Google. To elaborate: I was looking for additional information to accelerate an exercise/health putsch I kicked off recently. MDA kept showing up in that research so I did some reading and came to the conclusion that, with the exception of one major area, "primal" was very close to what I was already doing and/or had a long-standing preference for. The big exception, when I thought about it, was mostly a reflection of old economic realities and habit more than any deep desire. Said another way, I have lived through periods where the only way I could afford even 1000 kcal a day was to buy 50lb bags of rice and use that for the bulk of my calories, and my food buying habits never really changed when my financial situation improved. In my current situation it doesn't make sense to try to extend my food budget with bulk staple foods (rice, beans, wheat, etc) since the financial difference is negligible compared to my overall budget. So I dispassionately cut them, not because they are bad but because I don't need what they are best at providing - cheap calories.


    Quote Originally Posted by Misabi View Post
    Have you read this, or this?
    Those appear to be the same. Not specifically/yes in spirit and tone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misabi View Post
    I never realised that gluten was causing me issues until I completely removed it from my diet. Eating it never caused me any symptoms, but eating other foods certainly did. But once I stopped eating gluten, the other, more nutritious foods (eg. Veggies, onion, garlic) no longer were an issue for me.
    Yes, it seems perfectly reasonable that some people really need to shake things up to get past long standing food conditioning/habits.

    For myself, I have never had any issues with veggies, onion, garlic, or you name it. OK, so there was one time back when I was learning to cook and I misunderstood "15 cloves garlic" to mean "15 heads garlic" and everyone avoided me for a week, but that wasn't because I was experiencing "food issues" the way you mean. From childhood I have eaten everything from hostess twinkies to raw beef (it wasn't common, but I recall we had it a few times before I was 10) to vegetables of every description, and very few have any real effect beyond CICO. I mean, durains stink and raw fat can trigger gagging but that's not what you are talking about. Not having experienced it, I must constantly fight my tendency to dismiss all reported "food issues" as "parental authority issues" or plain old Placebo Effect. It's like so many other areas of life, from race to gender to height...I can't really see things from a 5'3" Caucasian female perspective, or a 6'5" Asian male perspective, because I'm not those people and I never will be, so I must accept that the experiences those people report are valid even though they are different from anything I have personally known. I accept that you have had issues eating vegetables even though it is something I have never personally experienced and I honestly don't even know what "issues" means in this context. I don't know what menstruation is like either. Such is life. I'm glad you found a way to enjoy things that I have enjoyed for as long as I can remember. I just can't bring myself to believe that your experience justifies bashing people on a baking forum for having a different perspective.

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