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Thread: Fat easily stored as fat but not carbs? page

  1. #1
    z90xhccs's Avatar
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    Fat easily stored as fat but not carbs?

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    I am having trouble believing what my nutrition textbook, Wardlaw's Perspective on Nutrition 8th edition, is saying about fats and carbs.
    It says "Fat consumed in excess of need goes immediately into storage in adipose cells. Compared with the conversion of carbohydrate and protein, relatively little energy is required to convert dietary fat into body fat. Therefore, high-fat, high-energy diets promote the accumulation of body fat.
    It goes on to say that "Carbohydrates consumed i excess of need is used first to maximize glycogen stores. Once glycogen stores are filled, carbohydrate consumption stimulates the use of carbohydrate as fuel and the storage of excess amounts as body fat. This then lessens the needs for any fat catabolism.However, the pathway for storing carbohydrate as body fat is not very active i humans. In addition, it requires the B-vitamins biotin, niacin, and panthoethinc aicd, and it is energetically expensive to convert carbohydrate to body fat." (P 303)
    Sorry for any typos.
    It cites for fats Gropper S and others. Advanced Nutrition and human metabolism. 4th ed
    For the carbs it cites Timlin M, Parks E. Temporal patternof denovo lipogenes in the postprandial state in healthy men. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2005;81;35
    This doesn't at all seem right to me, can you gets shed some insight?
    Thanks,
    -Zach

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    Griff's Avatar
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    It's completely incorrect. If it were correct, I'd have lost no weight at all, and I've dropped over 120 pounds of body fat, so it's bull.
    Primal eating in a nutshell: If you are hungry, eat Primal food until you are satisfied (not stuffed). Then stop. Wait until you're hungry again. Repeat.

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    z90xhccs's Avatar
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    Oh man I meant guys not gets! Would you happen to have any
    Further explanation as to what actually happens by chance? Or anyone else?

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    Digby's Avatar
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    Cw bs!
    This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Any given day you are surrounded by 10,000 idiots.
    Lao Tsu, founder of Taoism

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    This is correct. Kind of. If the human body was effecient at creating fat out of carbs there would never be insulin resistance.

    The coclusion of "Therefore, high-fat, high-energy diets promote the accumulation of body fat." is inside out though. It is true in a sense but so is "Therefore, low-fat, high-energy diets promote the accumulation of body fat."

    The explaination of why both are true is in the rest of what you read.

    The body will first store carbs as glycogen in the liver then the lean tissue. When these stores are full it will use iinsulin to try and stuff glucose into the tissue to be used as fuel. If this is a chronic condition this will lead to insulin resistance. Any "extra" calories you eat (from fat) must be stored. If the body was good at converting glucose to fat insulin resistance would be avoided.

    The reason PB works so well is that it keeps glycogen stores partially empty by a.) not filling them in the first place (<150g/day) and b.) lifting heavy things (uses glycogen as fuel). This leaves insulin to do its job and then disappear allowing the body to burn fat between meals.

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    My limited understanding is this...

    Your body prefers to run off glycogen. Glycogen is created generally with carbohydrates, i.e. sugars. When there is excess glycogen, your body generates insulin and stores the excess. Hence, you need to burn off all your carbs first, then your body will resort to fat if it's in a caloric deficit. If you eat too many carbs, your insulin is constantly high and eventually you become resistant (type 2 diabetes). This is why diabetics aren't supposed to have sugars or carbohydrates.

    In contrast, fat does not cause your body to produce insulin. So, when you eat fewer carbohydrates, and there is a caloric deficit, your body will burn more fat instead of just excess glycogen. If there are excess calories, but all those calories are fat, your body won't store them because it didn't generate enough insulin. (I've tried eating like 5000 calories a day of just protein and fat and didn't gain weight but didn't lose any either).

    Your body will only use protein for energy in extreme situations. (look up 'rabbit starvation').

    So, in short, to store fat, there must be excess calories and hormones (insulin) to store them. To lose (use for fuel) fat, there needs to be a deficit in both calories and glycogen, and insulin needs to be lowered.

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    They are trying to use the term "fat accumulation" is a boogey man but what they are describing is anything but. When we eat carbohydrate we release insulin and insulin inhibits fat burning (hormone-sensitizing lipase enzyme on the fat cells), thus we burn carbohydrate in place of the fat we would have otherwise burned. When insulin goes down and there is less glycogen we start burning more fat. If you're eating few carbohydrates at all you are constantly burning fat as soon as it enters. So "accumulation" is a misleading word. That doesn't mean you are going to have visible fat, just that it has to be stored somewhere and the adipose tissue is where fatty acids are stored, until they are needed.

    Pure pseudo-science. These shills ought to be ashamed.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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    kurite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavemanj View Post
    My limited understanding is this...

    Your body prefers to run off glycogen. Glycogen is created generally with carbohydrates, i.e. sugars. When there is excess glycogen, your body generates insulin and stores the excess. Hence, you need to burn off all your carbs first, then your body will resort to fat if it's in a caloric deficit. If you eat too many carbs, your insulin is constantly high and eventually you become resistant (type 2 diabetes). This is why diabetics aren't supposed to have sugars or carbohydrates.

    In contrast, fat does not cause your body to produce insulin. So, when you eat fewer carbohydrates, and there is a caloric deficit, your body will burn more fat instead of just excess glycogen. If there are excess calories, but all those calories are fat, your body won't store them because it didn't generate enough insulin. (I've tried eating like 5000 calories a day of just protein and fat and didn't gain weight but didn't lose any either).

    Your body will only use protein for energy in extreme situations. (look up 'rabbit starvation').

    So, in short, to store fat, there must be excess calories and hormones (insulin) to store them. To lose (use for fuel) fat, there needs to be a deficit in both calories and glycogen, and insulin needs to be lowered.
    Actually just so you know protein actually does cause an insulin response and actually one just as large as sugar but when its protein your body releases glucagon, which is antagonistic to insulin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cavemanj View Post
    My limited understanding is this...

    Your body prefers to run off glycogen.
    This is the problem. There needs to be a shift in thinkng. Alcohol is used first or you will be damaged. Then carbs are used or you will be damaged. FAT is the preffered fuel!

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    I think I remember Molecular Grokologist commenting about the bodies ability to store the fat in a way not related to insulin once upon a time...... I can't quite remember.

    The whole high carb = high insulin = fat storage and diabetes hypothesis seems to have a few plot holes but is generally true, especially when talking about refined or SAD foods. But whole foods seem to produce different responses.

    I'm starting to think that more carbs are needed to be optimally healthy, at least in my n=1 experiment. Not SAD amounts but definitely moderate intakes, especially if you are active (which you should be, Grok was) and assuming no metabolic derangement. Now I'm not saying to go out and eat your bagels, but incorporating root veg is a good idea.

    Even though fat is a great for energy glucose is the original fuel peeps!

    P.S. Does fat have to be sent to storage? Why can't it be utilised elsewhere to make bodily structures, cell membranes etc in the presence of carbs instead of energy?
    Last edited by muaythaimike; 03-24-2011 at 03:06 PM.
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