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  1. #691
    peril's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    I think there are a lot of people on this forum who may have read the book but stopped taking it in once they'd got the messages to lower carbs and that its good to eat the right fats. All the stuff about counting is at the back of the book.

    In the same way, many ignore the antiinflammation messages in the book. Wouldn't care if it was just the way they ate but they're noisier than a tree full of lorikeets
    Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

    Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    I wasn't commenting on anyone else's ratios or amounts of food, btw. I really *do not* care what other people eat or how. I think that each person finds the right way to apply the principles to themselves, and then it adjusts as their health changes.

    We made the adjustment that we needed to make to no longer feel light headed. First was increasing protein, then increasing carbs -- which follows the PB.
    I'm glad it helped with the light headedness. That is a sure sign that something is out of kilter.

  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by peril View Post
    I think there are a lot of people on this forum who may have read the book but stopped taking it in once they'd got the messages to lower carbs and that its good to eat the right fats. All the stuff about counting is at the back of the book.

    In the same way, many ignore the antiinflammation messages in the book. Wouldn't care if it was just the way they ate but they're noisier than a tree full of lorikeets
    I think a lot of people stopped reading when they got to the word "Bacon". You are very right though that the inflammation aspect is not discussed very much except by Stabby.

  4. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    I've been planning to read that one. It sounds much closer to what I need.

    But I love how people on this forum make fun of him as that crazy fat phobic guy.
    Do read it, very eloquent, much less proscriptive than some in this category. Intersting life history too. But trimming fat and discarding egg yolks made me sit up and wonder! But, over time I've begun to understand more of what he was trying to say - I belong to his private blog and forum and he comments quite frequently. He can come over as a bit of a 'know-it-all', 'been, there, done that', 'this is what I've been saying for decades' kinda guy but he has spent 30 years considering this topic.
    Seeking the natural way in a modern world ...

  5. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelda View Post
    Do read it, very eloquent, much less proscriptive than some in this category. Intersting life history too. But trimming fat and discarding egg yolks made me sit up and wonder! But, over time I've begun to understand more of what he was trying to say - I belong to his private blog and forum and he comments quite frequently. He can come over as a bit of a 'know-it-all', 'been, there, done that', 'this is what I've been saying for decades' kinda guy but he has spent 30 years considering this topic.
    Perhaps there is room in between tossing the egg yolks and scarfing down bacon for some middle ground. I think that is what we have collectively worked out here. Lean protein sources without adding gobs of extra fat for cooking or condiments seems to work for me but I'm not wasting any egg yolks.

    Hey Peril, I got a shipment of 'roo in the mail last week. Very tasty stuff indeed. Thanks for the idea.

  6. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Perhaps there is room in between tossing the egg yolks and scarfing down bacon for some middle ground. I think that is what we have collectively worked out here. Lean protein sources without adding gobs of extra fat for cooking or condiments seems to work for me but I'm not wasting any egg yolks.

    Hey Peril, I got a shipment of 'roo in the mail last week. Very tasty stuff indeed. Thanks for the idea.
    Its all down to the continuum of genotypes. Some need to add the gobs of fat, others can't afford to. There is no one prescription and those who are trying to follow it are bound to be disappointed. You guys are succeeding because you're undertaking the most important n=1 experiment

    No worries re the 'roo. Lean, tasty and much cheaper than venison here Which reminds me, must get some venison, not had it in years. Unfortunately, its all farmed here
    Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

    Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

  7. #697
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    Let Me Pretend I Understand...:)

    OK, So I came across this post while researching some on the boards. I'm in need of some serious support/help/recommendations...I'm confused!

    I am 5'6", 34, 155 pds. I am basically sedentary, though I am a school teacher so I am running around all day and don't sit a lot...but I have an 18 month old son and a very busy schedule and there is no time that I can find in my day to fit in any sort of exercise (hoping the weather will change up soon so I can go out for walks/start to run soon...). Yes, I am an avid runner and I am missing it very much. Haven't done it since a couple months after giving birth (read that - over a year ago). I don't run fast, but I do love to do a good 3-4 miles at a time, so that would be something I would like to incoroporate into my life again. But generally, there is pretty much no exercise in my daily life.

    I have been primal since the beginning of Sept. At the beginning it was great - I lost about 6 pounds fairly quickly. Then nothing. And still nothing. I have struggled with weight my whole life - was about 212 at my heaviest (in highschool), and have done Weight Watchers successfully 2 times. I can't complain about it at all - I was very successful and loved the counting points and measuring foods - I think it appeals to my slightly compulsive nature in this area. The only thing that made me gain weight after losing it on WW was 1) stress eating after my husband was in a very bad car accident (he is healthy and wonderful now - thank God...he actually has lost 20 pounds since going primal with me in Sept - sooo annoying...haha!!) and 2) Not getting the weight off after the birth of my son (I only gained about 25 pounds while pregnant, but I am about 10 pounds up from my "healthiest"/lightest (note the quotes) when I was running and counting points on weight watchers...and I really want to get back to a more toned and lighter me that I know I can be. I was thinking about trying WW primally, but would rather not spend the money - and figured perhaps just tracking it on my own would be worth a shot.

    I know I have to exercise - I have no metabolism to speak of...and if I do, the primal way just isn't getting it into drive. So, that recommendation I don't really need - I already know it.

    But here is what I am looking for:

    If I want to count calories/track (I'm using sparkpeople) to see if I'm eating over what I should be, should I just track what I'm eating to see how I'm doing, or should I cut out calories (300-500/day) for weight loss and track that? What is everyone here doing? I did my calculations for daily intake without decreasing for weight loss and this is what I got:

    BMR - 1480 calories
    Sedentary lifestyle brings that to - 1776 calories
    Lean Body Mass - 109 lbs (I used an online calculator that asked for measurements of hips, forearm, waist, wrist...)

    How should I calculate my protein/fat/carbs? I know Mark recommends half of calories from fat, but again, I just don't think my body can handle that so I'm thinking I should go a bit lower than that.

    Side note, my husband and I are on a one income household so we budget every dollar and have very little money to spend on organic food/pasture raised meats, etc We do coconut milk only, eat no grains (basically...some wild rice once every couple weeks...), very little, if any "boxed" food, organic veggies if they are on the "dirty dozen list" but most of our meats are not organic and some are processed (like italian sausage) that aren't as good for us...but we just can't afford the organic/farm raised at this point, and frankly, I can only eat so much chicken, beef, shrimp (I hate fish and seafood, shrimp is all I can handle), pork before I need some change and go towards some processed stuff (bad, I know!). We eat lots of veggies, some nuts, butter (not ghee), very little dairy (I have some sour cream or a sprinkle of parm cheese once or twice a week - seems not to affect me as I cut that out completely and then reintroduced it and there was no change)...

    OK, that was a lot of info...hope it is helpful and you can give me some ideas and suggestions! I really want to lose this last bit of weight, do it as primally as possible, and start feeling healthy and looking healthy again!



    -Tiffany


    Quote Originally Posted by winencandy View Post
    I thought about this a lot yesterday. Then I opened up The Primal Blueprint and did some reading. Got back to basics.

    From The Primal Blueprint:

    “These are the critical elements of the Primal Blueprint weight-loss approach:
    Minimize carb intake to control insulin production and enable stored body fat to be burned for energy.
    Optimize protein intake to preserve energy levels and or increase muscle mass while you exercise.
    Optimize fat intake to achieve high satiety levels, provide energy, and eliminate hunger.
    Engage in occasional Intermittent Fasting (I.F.) and deregulated meal habits to produce accelerated caloric deficits that lead to greater fat loss.
    Engage in a Primal Blueprint-style exercise program that fine-tunes your fat metabolism, builds/tones lean muscle, and accelerates body composition improvements without exhausting you.
    Avoid excessive regimentation or results obsession in favor of a long-term perspective. Assess results monthly and don’t worry about daily calorie counting or frequent scale measurements.

    For those of you seeking detailed, quantifiable guidelines for your caloric intake, you can follow this simple formula that begins with obtaining a calculable level of protein sufficient to preserve lean muscle mass, strictly limiting carbs to an average of 50-100 per day, and using fat as the main variable to obtain your daily caloric needs.”


    So, I tried it:

    BMR = 1358
    Lightly active x .375 = 509 Activity Factor (I'm not a heavy exerciser)
    Total Calorie Expenditure = BMR 1358 + Activity Factor = 1867
    Lean body mass = 98 lbs
    0.7 protein factor: 98 x 0.7 = 68.6 g lets say 70, to make my life easier But I will try to go higher, but I'm not going to "stuff" myself to do it.

    Carb Sweet Spot: 50-100g/day, so lets go for the middle – 75 g/day, but I will try to go lower.

    1867 – 500 = 1367 calories / day

    Desired Goals
    Desired protein grams = 70 (x4) = 280 calories
    Desired carb grams = 75 (x4) = 300 calories
    Desired fat grams = 85 (x9) = 765 calories

    Total calories = 1345 (close enough)

    These are going to be my goals.

  8. #698
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    Hey Tiffany.

    First, congratulations on your baby. Very cool. I know he's 1.5, but still.

    Second, take a deep breath, and take stock of the good things you are doing. So far, you are doing well with getting the right kinds of foods -- it doesn't have to be organic/grass fed or anything. It can be just whatever you can afford within the basic guidelines of being grain-free.

    Third, I just want to posit a few questions:

    1. why do you think that the ratios that Mark outlines in the book aren't for you?

    For my own part, I follow 45% fat, 35% protein, 20% carbs on average. Some days I might have more carbs and slightly less fat, and other days I might have more fat and less protein, and so on and so forth -- but it pretty much follows right along there.

    2. in regards to exercise -- i know what it is to be a working mom of a young kid. making it a part of your lifestyle can help.

    I find mark's recommendations very accessible -- particularly to busy people. 30 minutes of Lifting Heavy Things. This is body weight, and his big 5 do not take that long. Definitely worth figuring out if you can put 30 minutes a week into your schedule. Your school stuff counts as normal lifestyle.

    We hike -- as a family -- on weekends. When DS was your child's age, we would wear him and go (DH and I trading part-way). It was a great way to get long/slow and enjoy the out of doors (we did this both in PA and now that we are here in NZ). Not htat DS is walking pretty much everywhere, we've started keeping a little hiking journal so that we can see where his capacities are and how he develops over time. Our goal is to do the tongiroro alpine crossing (to the emerald lakes) by the time he is 7, and sooner if possible. Luckily, we have a lot of trails around our house with all kinds of variable terrain on which to practice.

    We also did this in PA -- in the snow. I know that a lot of folks don't like to go out when the weather is 'bad' -- but if you ahve the right gear, you are good to go. This year, we are going to Taupo in winter -- to have winter fun, which will include some hiking in the cold. It's valuable as well.

    After that, having one running day is probably accessible.

    So, that's an hour of your own you have to find -- 30 minutes LHT, 30 minutes running. And then a family time on the weekend doing something active. It doesn't have to be hiking, that just works for us. Trails everywhere, might as well use them.

    3. you say there is an issue with your metabolism, any idea what that might be?

    A friend of mine struggled with primal when she first started -- body comp seemed to be changing, but progress was slow. After some prodding, the combination of birth control and her other prescription was the culprit.

    We then decided to change our expectations. After another week or two, she started dropping weight. So, the meds are the same, but her body took longer to react to the dietary changes.

    Also, if you are still nursing, this can affect how quickly things move -- weight-wise -- off the body. it wasn't until DS was 14 months that I was able to loose the last of the pregnancy/nursing weight. That's when he started eating food in earnest, though he was still nursing a lot. So, that could be a factor in your situation too.

    At the end of the day, you'll just have to fiddle with it until it works for you.

  9. #699
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    [QUOTE]First, congratulations on your baby. Very cool. I know he's 1.5, but still[/QUOTE

    Thanks, zoebird - he's the joy of my life! Time has flown...I know it will only continue to go faster and faster... *sigh*

    Let me see if I can answer some of your questions...thanks for your help!

    why do you think that the ratios that Mark outlines in the book aren't for you?

    For my own part, I follow 45% fat, 35% protein, 20% carbs on average. Some days I might have more carbs and slightly less fat, and other days I might have more fat and less protein, and so on and so forth -- but it pretty much follows right along there.

    It's not that I don't think they are for me...well, maybe they are - I just guess I'm still in the midset of CW that tells me that the reason I'm not losing is because of too much fat. So, what I'm gathering from you is to take my calories, based on my BMR and activity level and then just calculate the grams I need based on the % you listed above?
    If so, this is what I got - let me know if they sound right:

    BMR = 1480,
    Sedentary (Because that is what I've been...but I'm going to work on this!): 1.2x1480 = 1780 (I rounded)

    So...1780 calories. I'll take that as a range say I should eat between 1260-1450 if I want to lose weight at a healthy pace.
    45% of 1260 (low end) = 567cal or 63 grams min of fat/day
    35% of 1260 = 441 cal or 110 grams min of protein per day
    20% of 1260 = 252 cal or 63 grams of carbs per day

    Does that look right to you to start? I am on SparkPeople so I can track everything and put in a range of 1260-1450 calories and then the macronutrient breakdown a range based on that as well...

    an hour of your own you have to find -- 30 minutes LHT, 30 minutes running. And then a family time on the weekend doing something active. It doesn't have to be hiking, that just works for us. Trails everywhere, might as well use them.
    You are right...there is no reason I can't find time to do this...I am feeling inspired so I'm going to do some research and figure out how I can best incorporate the LHT. The complication with that is only that I have to do it BEFORE DS gets up or after he goes to bed...We live in a smallish apartment and he's a light sleeper in the morning. By the time I would get around to do a routine in the morning, he is on the cusp of waking and if he wakes up then there goes the work out....I can do it at night easier but my motivation by about 8pm, after he is in bed and dinner is made, is pretty much ppptttthhhhh . But I will see what I can do. I just need to try it and throw out the excuses.

    you say there is an issue with your metabolism, any idea what that might be?
    No, just my gut feeling. I am so prone to weight gain. I think God just skipped over me when it came to metabolisms. Being overweight runs in my family though - my mom was heavy growing up and had to watch what she ate her whole life, and my dad was very heavy for a time too and then developed diabetes and a host of other problems (many of which were a result of his poor lifestyle)...but I think I have a predisposition to weight gain. My thyroid has been checked (well, it was about 5 years ago) and nothing came up. And there isn't any health problems that I have that make me think there is something WRONG with me...I just feel like I've got to work harder at it. If that makes sense.

    the combination of birth control and her other prescription was the culprit.

    We then decided to change our expectations. After another week or two, she started dropping weight. So, the meds are the same, but her body took longer to react to the dietary changes.

    Also, if you are still nursing, this can affect how quickly things move -- weight-wise -- off the body. it wasn't until DS was 14 months that I was able to loose the last of the pregnancy/nursing weight. That's when he started eating food in earnest, though he was still nursing a lot. So, that could be a factor in your situation too.
    This is great info! I never considered the nursing. I am not on contraception, or any medication (except some vitamin supplements), so that isn't anything. But I still do nurse him - though it's pretty infrequent now - only once or twice a day and for like 2 or 3 minutes...It's so infrequent (and sometimes he doesn't nurse at all during the day) that it never occured to me that my body might be hanging on to weight for that reason. Huh. What do you think? My guess is that DS will self-wean within the next couple months...he's gradually doing it on his own. I don't want to necessarily affect his wanting to nurse so I don't want to compromise my production - do you think a reduction in calories will compromise that, even though he does it so little (and I produce very little at this point....my guess is that at any given nursing session he gets between a half and full ounce....).

    Well, thank you for all your help and thoughts! Please let me know what you think about what I've responded...I'd appreciate your input!

    -Tiffany

  10. #700
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    my ratios may not be your ratios, but it can work. why not?

    If i were you, i'd probably seek to get a few more calories -- say 1500 or so. This way, when you start to exercise/whatever you will have enough calories and you won't feel like you are starving (if you feel satisfied around 1300, then that's cool too).

    I think it's important to feel satiated, and this can happen without over eating.

    As for exercise, if your partner is home, ask him/her to manage the little one for the half hour when he wakes if he wakes while you are exercising. this is what happens in our household, so it works out. Usually, DS sleeps during DH's work outs, and I do mine while at work (rather than after coming home). It's what works for us.

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