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Thread: Reality check: Counting calories page 14

  1. #131
    batty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iniQuity View Post
    By reducing fat we also reduce calories. OH LAWD WHICH IS IT.
    flip side of the coin: from what i got out of taubes' book [ooh, thread merge], he asserts that it is about finding the foods that make your body want to expend more energy than it consumes - WANTING to, not forcing it to. this does not necessarily have to be achieved via caloric restriction. it could very well be the case that bombarding your body with fat causes your body to want to release more energy than it is given. if it were that easy, this would be a forum full of lean individuals, and we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

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  2. #132
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    So, I e-mailed my friend this morning, just got a response, thought I’d share.

    My e-mail to him:

    “Hey man I was reading through this old exchange and I was wondering how your diet looks nowadays? Mine is not all that disciplined but I still avoid grains for the most part, and I'm chilling at a weight that I'm comfortable with (down almost 30lbs from where I started) but I could see myself with some work getting down to a much leaner weight. I have leaned out for sure, but bottom abs are still amiss mostly because I had some hibernation months where I ate a lot of crap.

    When you get a chance shoot me an e-mail on your eating and workout habits nowadays. Thanks.”

    (( as you can see I didn’t ask his stance on fat specifically, nor did I mention what I’ve been doing as far as exercise, he may be assuming I’m still doing muaythai though when I last saw him I told him I wasn’t. Bolding is mine ))

    His reply:

    “Yoooo whats up dude?
    Damn, where to begin.
    Well, for starters, congrats on losing the 30 lbs. That, in and of itself, is a tremendous achievement, but the fact that you've been able to keep the weight off (in spite of your "hibernation months") is proof that the paleo diet, in conjunction with metabolic conditioning exercise routines, has merit. That's a beautiful thing, too... it means that by simply eating how we are meant to eat and being moderately active we can maintain, what could be considered by today's standards to be a state of elite physical fitness.Humans in harmony with their role in the world. I love it.
    Now for my current workout and diet:
    You probably don't know this, but I've been working as a personal trainer for the past six months, so I'm in a gym setting 5 days a week with ample free time to spend working out. That being the case, I work out about five times a week and my typical split looks something like this:

    Monday: Squats (either full-depth or box squats), Shoulder Press, Pull-ups, BenchPress, Abs, 15 minutes of cardio
    Tuesday: Clean&Press 5x5 with 135 lbs., Chin-ups, Shrugs, Lunges, Abs, 15 minutes of cardio
    Wednesday: Deadlift 10-10-5-3-1, Inverted Row, Abs, Interval Sprints (1 min @ 12mph X 12 with 2min rest intervals)
    Thursday: MetCon (i.e. Crossfit-type workout) usually consisting of cardio and olympic lifts
    Friday: Squats, Pullups, Shoulder Press, Benchpress, Abs, 15 min cardio

    In just a few months, I've gotten my backsquat 1RM up to 375#, my deadlift 1RM up to 405#, and my benchpress 1RM up to 275#, bringing my total to 1,000+ pounds. My weight is at about 175, bodyfat 11-12%. (he’s about 5’9)

    Diet:
    I'm still pretty stricly PRIMAL, not paleo... I've never been able to fully abstain from dairy (i love goat cheese) or the occasional serving of brown rice. Sometimes, even though I take in a pretty healthy amount of fiber (at least 6 servings of fruits and vegetables daily), I still crave some more complex carbs.
    I've been staying away from eating lots of red meat, not because of anything I've read, I'm just happier with the way my body looks while eating white meat. I feel like I can stay leaner subsisting primarily on poultry and fish, and that red meat gives me a bloated, albeit slightly more muscular, look. I replace peanuts with almonds as much as possible, I still take in a decent amount of healthy fat (avocado, olive oil, fish, etc), I supplement with a protein shake twice a day to keep my metabolism rocking, and I am trying to drink more water. I take Jack3d (a creatine/arginine supplement designed to aid muscular endurance and oxygenation), so my water requirements are higher than they ordinarily would be. lso, anytime you're on a diet high in protein, you need to drink additional amounts of water to assist the overburdened kidneys' ability to function efficiently

    A couple of things that jump out at me, and this is not to pass judgment on my friend who has been nothing but helpful to me now and in the past:

    - I remember him telling me he was looking to work as a trainer. I think his exercise schedule is right on. It’s not something I’d do but it does mimic what a lot of guys here do, the difference perhaps being the isolated cardio and ab work, other than that, looks like plenty of LHT. (you have to remember he comes from a muaythai/crossfit background, so used to lots of cardio-esque work, 15 mins of cardio for him is nothing)
    - He’s more primal than paleo, based on his stance on dairy.
    - The red meat thing threw me off, I’m going to ask him for sources on that but it looks like he’s just going off what he sees in himself. I guess red meat is fattier, so maybe it goes back to that “how much fat” debate. I eat far more red meat than fish, but I do eat quite a bit of chicken, sometimes more than red meat. I’ve just never heard anybody say that before, that red meat makes you look a little puffier.
    - You can tell he eats cleaner fats, and doesn’t mention butter but he might use it, looks like his only dairy is goat cheese, not sure if he drinks milk or cream.
    - I know nothing about Jack3d, but the fact that he takes that plus protein shakes twice a day leads me to believe he doesn’t spend too much time in primal circles, since he’s trying to keep his metabolism active by eating (a notion that’s discredited by Leangains.com among others) I’m going to e-mail him about that to see what he thinks.

    The biggest takeaway for me is he’s still not over-dosing on fat. I eat somewhat similarly, but not as anal. I know him and he’s meticulous with his diet and habits, so I’m sure he keeps more careful track of what he puts in his mouth.

  3. #133
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    Not to take away from Paleobirds situation but would it be considered too much fat in a diet for someone wanting to lose fat if their diet consisted of 55%-70% fat? My caloric intake is roughly 1550 daily. Some days its higher due to a carb binge but that's rare and far between. I started at 225 and am down to 210 height is 5"5 and I wear loose size 16 almost into a 14.
    Georgette

  4. #134
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    I'd wager it's only "too much fat" if you find that the fat level hurts your weightloss or fitness goals. Since you are able to stick with your planned calorie total and you're losing weight, sounds like it's working for you, eh?

    My trouble was that I would overshoot my calories because of adding lots of fats.
    "Trust me, you will soon enter a magical land full of delicious steakflowers, with butterbacons fluttering around over the extremely rompable grass and hillsides."

  5. #135
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    Its odd, I'm finding that with adding fat, I eat less calories than I ever have.
    Georgette

  6. #136
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    Well, let’s be mindful of my friend’s situation here:

    - He’s working out daily, building muscle, etc.
    - he’s a young male (27 I think)
    - has always been pretty much VERY active, at least since I’ve know him. I would assume at least for the last 10 years.

    Women and men of different ages/lifestyles will have different macronutrient requirements.

    I do kinda worry sometimes about posters such as Griff (I pick him because he’s vocal of his love of fat, and because everybody here knows him) eating tons of fat with very little protein and very little carbs. I know his situation is further complicated by his blood sugar issues so I am NOT saying he should eat more protein and less fat, but I do wonder if it would help his body composition goals (to lose BF, though I know his primary goal is to keep his blood sugars under control) I’m not sure if he stayed with the workout regimen that I remember he started a while back, but I wonder how LHT plus protein with moderate fat and carb would work for him. Griff, if you’re reading, thoughts?

  7. #137
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    By reducing fat we also reduce calories. OH LAWD WHICH IS IT.
    and i think it was dragonfly who posted a link to something on the eades' blog about the same thing and i am not motivated enough to go hunting for it.
    Here it is again:
    The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. Ľ Low-carb and calories

    If you are in ketosis, it's all about the FAT.

    When you are in ketosis, fat will be burned, basically because there are no carbs left -- because you are in ketosis!

    Some protein will be utilized for gluconeogenesis to provide glucose for the brain, but protein will not be burned for energy if there is sufficient fat available--from any source. Being in ketosis makes body fat available for burning. Eades says it best here:

    On a low-carb diet your body burns fat for energy. But it doesn’t care where this fat comes from; it can come from the diet or it can come from the fat cells or it can come from both. If you are consuming enough fat to meet all your body’s requirements, your body won’t go after the fat in the fat cells no matter how severely you restrict your carbs. You will burn dietary fat only and no body fat. And you won’t lose weight. It’s that simple.

    And so my (imperfect!) understanding is that if you are not in ketosis and are eating lower calories, your fat stores will not be as available and your body will burn carbs, protein and fat--- in that order-- and you will lose muscle mass as a result.

    Iniquity~ Thanks for sharing your friend's story. Really got my brain working!

    I think that I feel better not ODing on protein, but I may up mine slightly. I've been hovering around 20% and will try upping it to 25%.
    Last edited by Dragonfly; 03-01-2011 at 08:54 AM.

  8. #138
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    well I am sure I will be cruciated and excommunicated for this , but have you thought about adding a little bit more starches/carbs into your diet?
    You have an excellent diet, are exercising a lot and in a good way, and don't appear to have any healing or healh improvement to do, so i would wager a bet that adding a few safe carbs here and there might actually put your body out of it's routine and reset some hormone levels (something to do with leptin levels?)

    being in constant ketosis really halted my progress, adding a few potatoes here and there made it going again (and increased my energy levels again, even though they were on a high level already from primal, but somehow I had more motivation again to push really hard in my workouts)

    I think I remember from somewhere that the last levels of stored energy might very well be there because your leptin levels get really low, which halts the stored energy burning process (I think it was from the Perfect Health guys, but mark did a take on leptin as well i think), so instead of going into further caloric restriction and possibly some form of starvation you might try to introduce some form of starches for 30 days and see what happens... Especially with the workouts you do it should give you added energy

    I am always sceptical when reduced calories (which you do already, low carb is a reduced calories diet) stop eliciting a response, and the remedy would be to further reduce calories... somehow that doesn't sound right to me (what was that quote about the dumbness of doing the same thing and expecting different results? not meant as an insult at all!)

    I may be way off, so please correct me if that is the case!

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude512 View Post
    low carb is a reduced calories diet
    I feel obliged to point out: not necessarily true, although it may work out that way for most people due to interactions with appetite. But it's possible to be low carb and still get the same or more calories.
    "Trust me, you will soon enter a magical land full of delicious steakflowers, with butterbacons fluttering around over the extremely rompable grass and hillsides."

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post

    On a low-carb diet your body burns fat for energy. But it doesnít care where this fat comes from; it can come from the diet or it can come from the fat cells or it can come from both. If you are consuming enough fat to meet all your bodyís requirements, your body wonít go after the fat in the fat cells no matter how severely you restrict your carbs. You will burn dietary fat only and no body fat. And you wonít lose weight. Itís that simple.

    And so my (imperfect!) understanding is that if you are not in ketosis and are eating lower calories, your fat stores will not be as available and your body will burn carbs, protein and fat--- in that order-- and you will lose muscle mass as a result.
    Totally got the first bit - read that blog and understood and even made some adjustments to my WOE as a consequence - cutting back a tad on fat and portion sizes (remains to be seen if they were a good idea).

    BUT the second bit - i feel I am back in "double negative land". I only get carbs from meat/proteins and from non root veggies on most days, very occasionally have carrots or a bit of parsnip, even less often have a bowl of frozen berries. (No dairy for about 6 weeks, almost no nuts for the same period). I have no "symptoms" of ketosis - and don't use stix. I am unsure of calories as I won't go back to counting. Are you saying I could be burning my hard earned muscle mass as my fat stores may not be available??

    I get soooo confused about all this it makes me wonder if I should stop trying to find out "whats best" and just eat. (not CW I hasten to add)

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