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    zoebird's Avatar
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    kipping movement?

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    could someone provide some good videos/what-nots of the kipping movement?

    Al has me a bit motivated in this direction. i still haven't found a bar where i could muscle up, but DH and i talked about the movement and how to break it into parts to develop the whole -- similar to how i practice yoga anyway -- and then we started thinking about the kipping movement.

    while i generally "disagree" with using so much momentum because it seems to let go of the benefits of form, i realized that i also provide wiggle room in my practice for the "whatever means necessary" principle, and that it is probably not too different.

    i'm also willing to concede that the movement may have it's own merit, just as variations on postures that i might not know about (but still analyze before using) likely have their own merit.

    thus, i'd like some nice images (Al's are great, too. i just want to see it on some different bodies for broader understanding) and videos if you know of any, and it would be fine if Fast Cat (or other cross fitters), iniquity and rivvin provided some as well (or, in rivvin's case, alternatives to kippings).

    thanks.

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    NeoBerserker's Avatar
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    I learned the kip completely by myself using the crossfit website. I watched videos of the WOD's and the videos that were posted to teach people the kip. I like to think i can do the kip pretty good now. Its all about finding the right rhythm to get the momentum for the next kip. I still mess up, especially when i'm tired, but i get better and better. Practice it once you've got it.

    Iv'e learned that there is kind of two kips that i havent heard too many talk about. One is a fast fluid kip that allows you to rack up reps pretty quickly and efficiently. The other is slower and it is kind of like starting each kip from the start without letting go of the bar. Check out some videos and see if you can see what im trying to point out.

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    Al_Kavadlo's Avatar
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    Women doing kipping pull-ups + NKOTB. What more could you want? Lots of subtle differences in technique from one woman to the next, too.



    Also, Zoe, here's an older blog post of mine on the kipping pull-up that you may have missed.

    Edit: Here's another video that shows two different techniques for the muscle-up (strong kip vs. minimal kip) side by side.

    Last edited by Al_Kavadlo; 02-18-2011 at 01:42 PM.
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they couldn't be more different."

    "You can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want."

    My blog: http://www.AlKavadlo.com


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    zoebird's Avatar
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    thanks Al, that's great.

    my analytical mind is getting a work out.

    i find the cross fit web site confusing. seriously, lol.

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    zoebird's Avatar
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    there are a lot of variations in that first video, and i'm seeing a few spaces for concern (neck strain mostly), but i think that's easily avoided though

    it is very similar to the fly (swimming). the only difference appears to be in knee lift which appears to be optional -- some hewing more closely a more "whip" and thus more like the butterfly stroke, and others using more abdominals.

    in the "whip" versions, there's a lot more mid back work, and in the knee lift, more core. the "kicks" vary as well -- from legs together, to more breast stroke versions, and so on.

    if i'm understanding your blog correctly, Al, you would say that they are simply two different ways of training. i can agree with that -- seems obvious. but i'd like to explore more of the benefits of both and how each one facilitates the other.

    reason being -- in my own work -- i spend a lot of time teaching "perfect form" versions and then also "quick ways" of getting the feel/learning the movement. of course, in the 'any means necessary' versions, my desire is to 1. give the student the sense of "yeah! I *can* do this!" as well as "oh! that's what it's supposed to feel like!" and then 2. utilize that in the service of creating the proper form and alignment for the optimal benefit of the given posture.

    this is different than what you are saying in the kipping blog, which is that these are two different ways of training, and that there are benefits to both. I can definitely go with that. In yoga -- just to compare/mirror -- there are many schools/styles of yoga, and so bikram preforms dancer's pose with "this" emphasis, whereas iyengar uses "that" emphasis. the postures have similar shape, but actually function in completely different ways -- both bio-mechanically and energetically. so, i often say to someone presenting with X/Y/Z issues to use bikram's sequence (and alignment) because ti will solve the problem. other times, with other problems, i might use iyengar. in other instances, other versions and ideas from different teachers within these lineages. i can't say that one is better than the other, but that they are different and used in different (and often specific) ways.

    but because i teach in the krishnamacharya lineage, i prize that particular alignment (and it's benefits), and of course, when teaching "general yoga" to "general students" who want "general benefits" i hew to my own interests! and that takes us back to using the "by any means necessary" process for them to experience confidence and feel what the posture will be, as a method of building to the right posture.

    so, i'm thinking this is different. in your blog, the benefits of the kipping style are: 1. more core work; 2. more aerobic (getting heart rate up); 3. getting more reps. the benefits of doing traditional style are: 1. more isolation movement to work the muscles; 2. working strength. you bring up that the kipping may be sport specific or help with general athleticism, whereas the traditional movement is really just for strength.

    i can see all of these points, but would be interested in more information about which sorts of sports it best promotes, and whether or not it does what i do with postures -- gives a feel so that a person CAN do both, and perhaps MAY only choose to do one or the other based on interest, desire, philosophy, or whatever.

    also, i don't think i could do it at the home bar because it's too close to cabinets on one side and too close to stairs on the other. i might try it anyway, but i am concerned about kicking stuff. LOL


    oh, and hawk asked me to put the bar down, so that he can try it. he says "lets watch Al now, ok?" when he wants to see a video online.

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    I'm prejudiced, I admit it. I can't help but feel that a kip is just a shitty-form pull-up.

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    it's my bias too. lol

    likewise, the regular one has plenty of risks for neck strain, and man, do many of those women look like they are headed that way!

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    -_-
    ad astra per aspera

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    Coach Palfrey's Avatar
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    The kip, as has already been said, is just another version of the exercise. It encourages greater extension through the shoulder and produces more power than a regular pull up. It's like comparing a deadlift and an upright row to a power clean - not a great idea.

    Would we say that Olympic Lifters have 'sloppy' technique compared to bodybuilders?

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    Al_Kavadlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post

    if i'm understanding your blog correctly, Al, you would say that they are simply two different ways of training. i can agree with that -- seems obvious. but i'd like to explore more of the benefits of both and how each one facilitates the other.
    Yep. It seems like you have a pretty thorough understanding of the differences. As far as using kipping pull-ups for sport specific reasons, you already gave one great example - swimming the butterfly stroke. I think it can help develop general explosiveness as well, which is great for pretty much any sport from rowing to football.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    oh, and hawk asked me to put the bar down, so that he can try it. he says "lets watch Al now, ok?" when he wants to see a video online.
    Haha - I love that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Palfrey View Post
    It's like comparing a deadlift and an upright row to a power clean - not a great idea.

    Would we say that Olympic Lifters have 'sloppy' technique compared to bodybuilders?
    Great analogy!
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they couldn't be more different."

    "You can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want."

    My blog: http://www.AlKavadlo.com


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