Feeling Sexy page 53

[Paleobird]

yeah, it's all good. and i wasn't accusing you of anything in particular, just asserting that the idea that you posit is addressed in that article in a fascinating way, and how it connects to the (older) fruedian idea.

and i don't think we are, by in large, pathological about sex. i do think we have large cultural issues related to it, but i don't think that is necessarily pathology.

"Issues" has become a polite way of saying "problems" but let's not get too hung up in the semantics. I think our society is much less pathological about sex than it was a generation or two ago. Things are improving.

BTW I think that Freud was a sexist jerk. I remember my mother trying to explain the theory of penis envy to me as a pre teen because she had read it in a psychology textbook and took it as gospel. I laughed in her face and asked in all sincerity, "You mean people actually buy this Freud guy's books?" I told her that it was the biggest load of horse manure that I had ever heard and that only a guy could come up with something so ridiculous. She was taken aback but then thought for a moment and then started laughing with me and said, "You know what, you're right."

[Saoirse]

"Issues" has become a polite way of saying "problems" but let's not get too hung up in the semantics. I think our society is much less pathological about sex than it was a generation or two ago. Things are improving.

BTW I think that Freud was a sexist jerk. I remember my mother trying to explain the theory of penis envy to me as a pre teen because she had read it in a psychology textbook and took it as gospel. I laughed in her face and asked in all sincerity, "You mean people actually buy this Freud guy's books?" I told her that it was the biggest load of horse manure that I had ever heard and that only a guy could come up with something so ridiculous. She was taken aback but then thought for a moment and then started laughing with me and said, "You know what, you're right."

wow, people actually still believe in penis envy? i honestly feel a little sorry for guys because they never have even the hope of experiencing gestation, childbirth, or nursing/rearing a baby. not that everyone wants to experience this, but at least most of us women have it as an option at some point in our lives. no, freud had serious issues by today's societal ideals.

zoebird, what you said about differentiating between pathological and "having large cultural issues" about sex is interesting. i don't know if this is where you were going, but attitudes regarding sex are almost purely cultural. granted, we have primal/evolutionary drives, but how we *handle* those drives is cultural. for example, in societies throughout time, it was acceptable and preferred for teenage boys to become sort of lovers to respectable older men, as a sort of close bond and training in skills necessary for societal achievements. today, that sort of relationship would be detrimental for a teenage boy, but was it detrimental in that society and time? (please don't misunderstand me, i don't believe something is healthy for a person simply because it's socially expected or acceptable. rape, for example, is common and accepted in many cultures today, but it is never healthy for either party.) is it possible that certain views about sex are only culturally-specific? another example would be virginity. some cultures try to avoid "experience" before marriage to such a great degree as to perpetuate "honor" killings, while other cultures highly encourage women and men alike to gain experience and skills before partnership.

[NourishedEm]

I don't think I have penis envy, but I sure as hell would like to have one for a day, just so I could see what a BJ feels like.

Wow, I go to Bali for a week and the thread goes mad!

With regards to the ravish/rape debate, when I used the word ravish, it wasn't meant to imply force per se, just a "I'm having you now" kind of mentality. If I really wasn't in the mood, I wouldn't expect to be coerced. However, confronted with that sort of blatent desire, I'm sure I could get in the mood in fairly short order.

For the record, the kayaking in Bali is to die for! All the sun, half-nakedness, relaxation and cocktails made for some real white-water action if I may stretch the metaphor

[Saoirse]

I don't think I have penis envy, but I sure as hell would like to have one for a day, just so I could see what a BJ feels like.

oh yeah, i think it would be interesting to truly know how the other half lives.

[zoebird]

i am making a distinction between a sexual pathology and cultural problems and now, cultural expectations or ideas (social mores).

sexual pathology generally falls into psychopathological studies. this is mental illness, mental distress and abnormal, maladaptive behavior. in psychiatry, it's focused on the physical illness and it's personal and social arisings; in psychology, it's often simply called abnormal psychology and exists and/or is discussed purely in the mental-emotional context.

within any given culture, that which is defined as a pathology will show up as a pretty typical bell curve, to be honest. there will be trends -- with most of the people in teh culture falling into the norms.

psychopathology does not, though, necessarily stem from social problems (cultural issues/social problems) or even from social/cultural mores which may function to define what is and is not to be considered "abnormal, maladaptive behavior."

many people who have various sexual issues -- usually suppression and promiscuity in the extremes -- are not pathological by definition. these would be really, problems, not pathologies. they become pathologies when the individual can no longer function -- eg, the suppressed individual cannot express a healthy sex life, the promiscuous individual moves into addiction or simply an unhealthy version of promiscuity rather than a general promiscuity.

in our culture, both suppression and promiscuity (in certain forms) are both lauded and demonized, which is where social/cultural problems are. really,the culture is trying to dictate and police (through social means such as shaming) those values that they hold around sex. those values -- in our culture -- include lauding suppression as self control, purity, and spiritual health, and punishing promiscuity (in women at least) with lack of self control, lack of self care, and lack of purity and spiritual health. this, of course, is socially problematic.

and this social problem can impact women to the point of suppression, and then that suppression to the point of pathology. but, it's not the social problem that is 'at fault' or the origin, it is merely only one aspect of the problem. it usually happens in the family and then with whatever sexual experience she has (eg, being punished for infantile masturbation at age 2/3). and, only a small percentage of the population will actually fall into pathology.

i believe that -- among some of his clients -- freud was dealing with pathology. for whatever his own perspectives were flawed, what i find fascinating is his instinct (or intellect) in regards to treating women who were "frigid." he seemed to clearly understand their context -- that women lived in a very contained world, where sex was dangerous (and desired by women), and where women were not free to express their desires without extreme social policing. a woman who enjoyed sex -- even marital sex -- was considered strange indeed (even though, i would say, freud would consider a woman enjoying sex to be a healthy, normal woman). he postulated that women who were frigid had internalized this policing in the extreme (to the point of pathology) and suggested that she imagine or recreate in her mind rape scenes to help her emotionally let herself off the hook for desiring sex. it is an interesting process.

but, he would then also postulate that perhaps it is also a pathology to be willing to recreate rape scenes in her mind which would in turn, allow her the freedom to have sex.

and that is where the origin of the idea that women want rape and/or that dominance fantasies are "pathological."

instead, ciliakat's article points out that it's not pathological because it seems to be a rather "normal" trend in our society across both men and women -- the desire to be dominated during sex -- and that it's not necessarily related to rape. all very fascinating stuff, which essentially, boils down to Freud was wrong about this being a pathology. But he might not have been wrong in using it as a method to overcome pathological sexual suppression.

so, social problems related to sex are -- social problems that can be determined and socially solved through the critical mass process.

this takes us to cultural mores -- which of course are really confusing to talk about at all -- because there is enough liberalism to say that many cultures can get things right or function well within their rules, but also say that these things aren't absolute. but it might beg questions -- is man/teen "love" or what have you appropriate? and when? and for whom? and why do we choose this? why did the other community choose it? how does it or did it function for them? what social problems arose from this situation? what social problems would arise today if we adopted a similar model, or allowed this to occur (legally and socially) in our culture? what social problems would be or may be solved?

anyway, lots of questions and interesting ideas.

[Saoirse]

i am making a distinction between a sexual pathology and cultural problems and now, cultural expectations or ideas (social mores).

Hmmm...i'm having troubles differentiating your terms. for example, how do you define pathology? 1. pathology is something that is ill no matter what culture the behavior is seen in. for example, having smallpox would be pathological; schizophrenia is NOT pathological because in some cultures schizophrenic individuals are seen as spiritually touched (in other words, it's not a bad thing). OR 2. "pathology" is any deviation from the culturally-defined norm (which is, of course, culturally defined). rape is pathological in our society (and in most) but not in those cultures where women are considered to have no rights because they are not fully people.

sexual pathology generally falls into psychopathological studies. this is mental illness, mental distress and abnormal, maladaptive behavior. ...within any given culture, that which is defined as a pathology will show up as a pretty typical bell curve, to be honest. there will be trends -- with most of the people in teh culture falling into the norms.

So, we are defining pathology within the culture that the behavior is found?

psychopathology does not, though, necessarily stem from social problems (cultural issues/social problems) or even from social/cultural mores which may function to define what is and is not to be considered "abnormal, maladaptive behavior."

Now i'm confused. i thought pathology was culturally-defined.

in our culture, both suppression and promiscuity (in certain forms) are both lauded and demonized, which is where social/cultural problems are. really,the culture is trying to dictate and police (through social means such as shaming) those values that they hold around sex.

I think most cultures find ways to enforce their cultural values. I think what we're seeing is a change in social mores regarding sex and women.

those values -- in our culture -- include lauding suppression as self control, purity, and spiritual health, and punishing promiscuity (in women at least) with lack of self control, lack of self care, and lack of purity and spiritual health. this, of course, is socially problematic.

How is this socially problematic? i'd think it's personally problematic, but not socially. something is socially problematic if it disturbs the continuation of the whole. madonna/whore complex still allows for procreation and recreation.

and this social problem can impact women to the point of suppression, and then that suppression to the point of pathology. but, it's not the social problem that is 'at fault' or the origin, it is merely only one aspect of the problem. it usually happens in the family and then with whatever sexual experience she has (eg, being punished for infantile masturbation at age 2/3). and, only a small percentage of the population will actually fall into pathology.

I see, so now we're talking about the outliers on the bell curve.

(even though, i would say, freud would consider a woman enjoying sex to be a healthy, normal woman).

WK Kellog, OTOH...

this takes us to cultural mores -- which of course are really confusing to talk about at all -- because there is enough liberalism to say that many cultures can get things right or function well within their rules, but also say that these things aren't absolute.

this is essentially what i was talking about. my basic point was that, what might seem abhorrent and self-evidently wrong to some, seems commonplace and "natural" to others due to socialization.

but it might beg questions -- is man/teen "love" or what have you appropriate? and when? and for whom? and why do we choose this? why did the other community choose it? how does it or did it function for them? what social problems arose from this situation? what social problems would arise today if we adopted a similar model, or allowed this to occur (legally and socially) in our culture? what social problems would be or may be solved?

anyway, lots of questions and interesting ideas.

of course, this is judging a cultural trait from an exogenous standpoint. you may think a trait is perpetuated because of "X", while the viewpoint from within the culture is that the trait is perpetuated because of "Y". anyway, it's interesting to think about, and to try to apply that "outside looking in" to our own cultural traits, as well, to attempt a more intentional view of life.

[Saoirse]

oh shoot, i hope i didn't just ruin another sex thread!

[Grizz]

True stories:
Ladies being RAVISHED ?

NOTHING in this thread compares to my old high school days. Some of the girls in high school enjoyed being RAVISHED, and happily participated on the weekend Gang Bangs. Just imagine 20 or 30 horny teenage boys lined up waiting their turn to get into the bedroom. This was not gang rape, it was gang sex, and the girls loved it all. There was gang sex at least once a month. I don't know where they found these girls, but when they did, the phones were ringing as the buddies called each to join the SEX party. The girls told their girlfriends, and those who were interested joined into the fun. Of course crabs were rampant in this group. You could tell by the boys scratching their crotch ;--)) They weren't all teenage girls, sometimes they found older women who were eager for a good Gang Bang. One event had a woman in her 40s taking on about 10 teenage boys.

Then later when I was working for IBM, there were two very attractive young women at work who had bragged on several occasions how they were Groupies for the Chicago Blackhawks Hockey Team. They described in detail how they took turns doing gang bangs with the entire team. Yea, they would follow the Blackhawks all over the country, even to Canada for their weekend games, giving them group sex.

Can anyone beat these real life stories?

Grizz

[Enamel]

I don't think I have penis envy, but I sure as hell would like to have one for a day, just so I could see what a BJ feels like.

I've often thought similar things, although I'd never, ever want to trade in my gear permanently, aha. Switching bodies with your partner for a day would be such a mind-opening experience - I always wonder what it's like for guys when they orgasm, especially since my SO always says he's jealous of mine.
Since this thread is so huge, I'm sure the question of 'is sex better for men or women' has come up before, and the answer to that question depends on the individual, but why do women (in general) seem to have more intense orgasms than men? Does it just seem that way because women tend to be more vocal than men, or do they really just have better orgasms? I've heard about guys being close to passing out from pleasure, but they seem to be the minority.

[Saoirse]

I've often thought similar things, although I'd never, ever want to trade in my gear permanently, aha. Switching bodies with your partner for a day would be such a mind-opening experience - I always wonder what it's like for guys when they orgasm, especially since my SO always says he's jealous of mine.
Since this thread is so huge, I'm sure the question of 'is sex better for men or women' has come up before, and the answer to that question depends on the individual, but why do women (in general) seem to have more intense orgasms than men? Does it just seem that way because women tend to be more vocal than men, or do they really just have better orgasms? I've heard about guys being close to passing out from pleasure, but they seem to be the minority.

hmm...this hasn't been my experience. while i've had some pretty great orgasms, it seems like my husband's usually equal mine.
but *if* this is true as a general rule, maybe it's a trade-off. men usually can come to an orgasm more quickly and with less stimulation or effort than women can.