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Thread: Talk about primal! (well, ignore the shoes) page

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    NicoB's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel


    Someone posted this on twitter.


    It's a persistance hunt.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo


    I understand that chronic cardio is bad, but are long runs?

    Once you learn that you create your own reality and that you are fully responsible for your life, you can begin to see the world as it is and then you realize the limitless possibilities.

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    Katt's Avatar
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    I've seen that video. Excellent bit. Can't answer the question, however.

    Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
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    Tarlach's Avatar
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    Marathon running is the thing that Mark says to avoid as it is chronic cardio.


    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/case-against-cardio/


    also:

    http://www.arthurdevany.com/?p=1262


    Persistence hunting is a ludicrous concept. Man did not evolve doing it.

    The "Seven Deadly Sins"

    • Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . • Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . .• Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
    • Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . • Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . • Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
    • Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

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    NicoB's Avatar
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    Tarlach, that is a statement without anything behind it...


    I understand both Mark and De Vany, and I don't disagree with them, but I'm also the kind of person who tries to look at things from every angle.


    That statement you made "Persistence hunting is a ludicrous concept. Man did not evolve doing it."


    Why? Why not?


    From an evolutionary point of view it make more sense to me that we ran down our prey long before we speared it. And I'm leaving out the bow and arrow since that is definitely a "modern" tool in the grand scheme of things.


    We are the only animal on the planet that constantly stands and moves on our hind-quarters without the need of a counterweight (tail) for our upper body, and after today's article on squatting (plus time spent in Asia, third world countries, and watching small kids when they are tired) we rest on feet as well.


    I'm not trying to contradict Mark at all with these questions. There is a huge difference between "chronic cardio" on a day in day out basis, and the concept that our great grok-daddies (and great grok-mommas) needing/wanting meat and going out on a "insert some sort of regular basis here" (or they were more than likely constant nomads) in a hunting party and running down one or two big pieces of meat to feed the tribe (and yes, a party cause you gotta carry the dead bugger back).


    Sorry if I'm drawing this out (or trolling this out, as it were), but right now I live with my aunt, and she is an MD, and what she "knows" is proof enough for her that some of my concepts are ludicrous.

    But I'm nothing special, so I try everything out as I can to see if or not it makes sense.


    As of yet I haven't gone primal, because I don't want to deal with the CW my aunt MD is going to give me, but I have tried other things.


    One of those things is barefoot running.

    I can tell you for a fact that as a 6'1", 125kg, 29 year old male (aka. fat and out of shape) who has tried to run to get in shape, and prior to that was obligated to run because he was in the US army.

    I can run easier, faster, and farther, barefoot than when I did it shod.


    So why would persistence hunting be an absurd concept?


    Hell! Socrates had it right:

    "I know that I don't know."


    And one last thing. And I am aware that this is offensive to some of you, but Mark's book is called "The Primal Blueprint" not "The Primal Bible."

    A blueprint can be modified as situations change, and knowledge is accrued.

    Once you learn that you create your own reality and that you are fully responsible for your life, you can begin to see the world as it is and then you realize the limitless possibilities.

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    Nico, I think it's more likely that we evolved to privilege stalking and sprinting over chasing a prey for 40 minutes before making a move.


    I might be wrong though, as I have a vague recollection of reading a paper describing African tribesmen continuously tracking and chasing and animal for hours leading it to exhaustion. That would make sense in vast empty fields like savannas, for example, where the surprise element for hunters would be difficult to obtain. But even that scenario is different than running a marathon.


    When I picture Grok hunting, I imagine scenarios with short bursts of energy invested in strength, sprinting or other types of violent struggle. More of a fight-or-flee type of situation.


    The above makes even more sense to me if we take into account the health problems associated with chronic cardio.

    “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
    "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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    SerialSinner: There is a definite difference in between hunting prey in a wide open space, and getting the drop on a beast in the woods while silently stalking it.


    No argument there.


    But the concept I wrestling with would be along the lines of being in a physical condition that you would spook the beast to go all out and then track the beast while jogging.

    If we are able to do that, then the concept of running long distances at the 50% max heart rate, and keeping a speed that allows grok to catch up to the said beast and not give it enough time to relax, would it be chronic cardio?


    The problem with marathons and even ultras is that it is a race, but if someone decided to run all day (aka. paraphrasing Forrest Gump: "I just ran. When I was tired I slept, when I was hungry I ate, and when I needed to go... Well... I went") Is that chronic cardio?


    Or is it just moving at a fast pace that can be maintainable for hours? And possibly put meat in one's belly.

    Once you learn that you create your own reality and that you are fully responsible for your life, you can begin to see the world as it is and then you realize the limitless possibilities.

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    When I was a Cub Scout I learned something called "Indian's Pace," or, of course, "Scout's Pace." The basic format is you run 50 paces, you walk 50 paces. The beauty of this is that depending on your needs and condition, you can vary that ratio however you like. 60/40, 40/60, etc. After awhile, the counting almost flows w/o any effort. It also takes your mind off of the drudgery.


    Used it many times to get home from too far away before curfew!


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    Calvary used to do that as well with their horses...

    Trot while ridding the horse, then run besides the horse to give the beast a break.

    Cover more distance that way, and your horse was semi-fresh for the battle.

    Once you learn that you create your own reality and that you are fully responsible for your life, you can begin to see the world as it is and then you realize the limitless possibilities.

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    Maybe persistance hunting is another case of local adaptation? The tribes that do it are likely less damaged by marathon cardio. It's an old fallacy to believe that evolution only happens on massive timescales - it happens in small ways in every generation.


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    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    [quote]

    Tarlach, that is a statement without anything behind it...


    I understand both Mark and De Vany, and I don't disagree with them, but I'm also the kind of person who tries to look at things from every angle.


    That statement you made "Persistence hunting is a ludicrous concept. Man did not evolve doing it."


    Why? Why not?
    </blockquote>


    Sorry, I didn&#39;t realize I wasn&#39;t allowed to state something without providing evidence for it.


    Here we go then...


    We didn&#39;t evolve to handle that amount of glucose throughput (as Mark states. He should know as he did it for years).


    Humans can run long distances today but we need to have water available. So we either have to carry the water, we have to have somebody supplying us water along the way. Paleo man did not have this luxury. How do you propose that he ran for 10&#39;s of miles without any water?


    If we were meant to run long distances then we would have huge lungs like horses. They have big airways and huge bellows of lungs to maintain a good pace over long distances.

    Humans are built much more like cheetahs. We are compact and lithe. Definitely evolved to run and maneuver over short distances.


    It takes a years of training to run a marathon. It is not natural and we can&#39;t just do it from birth.


    Man is a pack animal. The strongest male always rules the pack and will get the largest share. Selective breeding would then favour bulk and not endurance. Endurance is favoured by prey animals (as the fastest survive another day). Man is a hunter.


    Man has also been using projectile weapons since being &#39;man&#39;. Spears maybe a more recent invention, but the hand and arm is perfectly suited to throwing rocks. A much better hunting method than trying to run


    Children instinctively pick up and throw rocks (probably the reason why they love balls). They also try to lift heavier weights and will haul around large objects as they grow up (strength training).

    Children are unable to run for up to a year or two of age and then only run fast for short distances. This indicates that man evolved being more sedentary and was not constantly on the move.


    Conversely, zebra foals can walk within an hour of birth and run long distances within a few weeks.


    Man is not a born runner.


    I&#39;m not saying we can&#39;t run. Just that we are not evolved for endurance running. The repetitive strain (and other) injuries that runners develop are testament to this.


    The human body is terribly inefficient for running long distances.


    Having two legs means that whilst running there is an enormous amount wasted energy on muscle stabilization (just to keep us upright).


    Paleo man wasn&#39;t running road marathons in his Nike&#39;s. The ground was uneven and there was trip hazards. A broken leg probably meant death. Even a sprain would have left paleo man susceptible to attack if he was a runner and not a fighter. We also don&#39;t have the oxygen throughput that better long distance running animals have. Running at a marathon pace just doesn&#39;t make any sense. Especially to try and chase down a four footed animal that would have been better suited to running under the conditions.


    Man has always excelled at getting results from the least amount of effort. Before spears, man would have scavenged, ambushed, snared, trapped, overwhelmed, or surrounded prey.


    I doubt very much that paleo man ran down anything. How would they then get the food back to camp? Try carrying 100lb and see how far you get.

    They would need masses of food to maintain the glucose levels required for marathon running and a large amount of carbs was not available to paleo man.


    The animals that travel the furthest each day have wings or fins. Running is a horribly inefficient mode of travel.


    Man is horrible at running and most animals can initially outdistance us enough to be able to evade us (they have much better acceleration and maneuverability). Endurance hunting could only be possible in very limited circumstances. The animal needs to be of the right speed and stamina, must be isolated from their herd/pack, and the terrain must be ideal for man to keep track of the animal. Certainly not a regular occurrence and not something that would stay consistent over vast distances.


    A simple snare works much more effectively and takes very little effort. Much more likely than running food down. Ask any wildlife survival expert how to get food and the simple methods are always the best. Running tens of miles is not simple.


    As modern examples of man Vs animal performance:


    A trained marathon runner chasing a laden horse is more than 13 minutes behind the horse after 2 hours and 22 miles, if they both start running at the same time. That is a lead to the horse of almost 3 miles.

    The horse could stop and rest for ten minutes and still have a significant lead.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLGVewfpTlE

    Only once in the 25 years has a man lost less than 15 minutes of ground to a laden horse over 22 miles


    That&#39;s a horse WITH A RIDER. A horse running unladen can beat a man any day. Usually the laden horses beat the men in the race ... with a handicapped start!

    I&#39;d love to see the runners carry 50lb or so to even it out. That video is quite good proof that man is pathetic at running compared to a horse.


    1892: Prussian and Austro-Hungarian soldiers raced from Berlin to Vienna. The winner rode 350 miles in 72 hours. The horse died, as did 25 others out of 199 who started.

    The laden horse maintained a 12 minute mile for 3 days before dying.


    A record breaking marathon runner can maintain a pace of 12 miles per hour for just over 2 hours on flat terrain.


    If man ran down a horse over say 20 miles. How did he get that meat back to the rest of the tribe (if it is even edible at this point)? It would take more meat than he could carry back to replenish the glucose that was burnt doing the trip in the first place.


    Lieberman is completely missing most of the facts. This is a much better book:

    http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s7435.html


    Anyone who has actually hunted in the wild knows it is a stupid idea and highly unlikely that homo erectus or any ancestor hunted that way.


    • Man prefers the taste of freshly killed meat that has been subjected to the least amount of stress prior to death.


    • Man developed increasingly complex weapons.

    This may indicate a priority on hunting methods other than persistence hunting. Time and effort was put into developing methods to quickly kill other animals (not animals that had died of exhaustion).


    • Man stayed in a single place for periods of time as a community.

    This is indicative of local hunting. If persistence hunting was carried out, man would have had get the kill back to the other members of the band.


    Man probably started off scavenging, maybe using sticks as weapons to ward of animals. They probably used rocks to break bones and get to the marrow. This would have been the start of tool usage and man likely started using rocks or sticks/clubs/bones for a variety of jobs.


    Ambushing prey with a barrage of rocks is much more likely than running after an animal in the hopes that it died of exhaustion.


    Try running down a wild animal some time. They outdistance/outmaneuver and hide or run far enough away and then stop (and have a break) while you try and catch up. The idea of persistence hunting is ridiculous.


    Most four legged animals (ie. gazelle) have a massive speed advantage over a man, meaning it can spend 90% of it&#39;s time resting while man keeps up a &#39;constant pace&#39; it would only have to run for a short time to gain a significant lead.

    Gazelle have the same endurance advantages that horses have and could easily outrun a man over vast distances.


    There is a reason why no animal has evolved to persistence hunt over more than a few kilometers. It is a massive waste of energy.


    Just look at how all other animals hunt. Usually there is a stealthy approach or ambush followed by a fast attack with weapons. Why would man be any different? It is the most productive and energy efficient way of hunting.


    Another fact about animals that evolved to run a lot - they have a forward facing neck, so that the head does not bounce up and down as much as the base of the neck whilst running (the neck acts as a horizontal shock transfer). The continual bouncing of the brain against the skull reduces concentration, impairs judgment and may result in permanent damage. Not the kind of activity to do if you are relying upon your brain to survive.


    Marathon running damages your brain. The damage resembles acute brain trauma. Marathon runners have elevated S100beta, a marker of brain damage and blood brain barrier dysfunction (and cancer).


    From Marchi, et al Restor Neurol Neurosci, 2003; 21 (3-4): 109-21, “S100beta in serum is an early marker of BBB openings that may precede neuronal damage and may influence therapeutic strategies. Secondary, massive elevations in S100beta are indicators of prior brain damage and bear clinical significance as predictors of poor outcome or diagnostic means to differentiate extensive damage from minor, transient impairment.”


    Endurance athletes have more spine degeneration than other athletes.


    From Schmitt et al Int J Sports Med. 2005 Jul; 26 (6): 457-63, “The aim of this study was to assess bone mineral density (BMD) and degenerative changes in the lumbar spine in male former elite athletes participating in different track and field disciplines and to determine the influence of body composition and degenerative changes on BMD. One hundred and fifty-nine former male elite athletes (40 throwers, 97 jumpers, 22 endurance athletes) were studied. …Throwers had a higher body mass index than jumpers and endurance athletes. Throwers and jumpers had higher BMD (T-LWS) than endurance athletes. Bivariate analysis revealed a negative correlation of BMD (T-score) with age and a positive correlation with BMD and Kellgren score (p < 0.05). Even after multiple adjustment for confounders lumbar spine BMD is significantly higher in throwers, pole vaulters, and long- and triple jumpers than in marathon athletes.”


    If endurance hunting was the norm, then man would have likely shrunk in height (or at least in torso) and developed bent over posture, hunch-back or a longer and more forward facing neck to aid in running. We would not have grown taller (as we did).

    The "Seven Deadly Sins"

    • Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . • Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . .• Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
    • Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . • Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . • Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
    • Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

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