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Thread: Venus of Willendorf page

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    spughy's Avatar
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    Venus of Willendorf

    Primal Fuel
    I'm going to preface this by saying I fully believe that eating primally is totally the way to go. I'm new to the forum so I just want to get that out there - NOT trolling! I'm genuinely interested in what people's thoughts are on this.

    The Venus of Willendorf figurine is an obviously obese woman - looks to be over 45% bf at least. Primal people must have had some experience with bountiful ladies, I don't think you could extrapolate fat deposits from completely lean people. So even if she's an exaggeration, I doubt she's THAT much of one. How do you suppose those who inspired the carving could have gotten than way, on strictly primal food, under the demands of a primal lifestyle? I sat on the couch and ate bon-bons for years and didn't get close to that.

    (Please excuse me if this has been covered previously somewhere - I DID do a search on the forums before posting and came up with nothing on the figurine.)
    Last edited by spughy; 12-04-2010 at 09:47 PM.

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    I don't know the direct answer to your question, sorry about that. I just wanted to point out that the inspiration for the venus figurines doesn't necessarily have to come from women with such a high BF percentage. If they have the necessary given genetic disposition, I think it should be able to achieve these forms also at a lower percentage:

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/What-...ia-51231.shtml
    http://barclay1720.tripod.com/hist/paleo/buttocks.htm


    ... add very large breasts to that and you're pretty much there. And judging from some animés and mangas that I've seen I think men are good at imagining unrealistically large breasts
    Last edited by anne; 12-04-2010 at 10:24 PM.

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    Never underestimate a horny man's ability to exaggerate female proportions. Have you seen Japanese cartoons?
    You lousy kids! Get off my savannah!

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    It's not just the boobs and the bum though - it's the abdomen (which is definitely NOT a pregnant abdomen). I've been cruising wikipedia and it seems that ALL the paleolithic figurines of women were chubby to some extent. Depictions of men are not.

    Obesity today is linked with fertility problems, but all the archaeologist types seem to think these figurines are fertility symbols.

    I don't doubt that this kind of morphology was somewhat rare in paleolithic times... I'm just wondering, hypothetically, what the diet and activity level would have to look like in order to achieve it. Maybe special ladies got to sit around while everyone else brought them mammoth marrow smeared on tuber cakes?

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    in some cultures large women are prized, one way weight is force gained is by gagging down gallons of milk a day

    there have always been overweight-to-obese people, i think it's just far more prevalent today

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    Maybe that was a statue made by Grok after witnessing his first grain fed woman.

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    I read Hawaii by James Michener about 30 years ago; I recall that the Queen (Mana Aliki Nui, or something like that) was force-fed and massaged to increase her girth. I know it's a novel, but Michener is known for his meticulous research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spughy View Post
    The Venus of Willendorf figurine is an obviously obese woman - looks to be over 45% bf at least.
    Well ... who knows what she is? There are various theories. And it's certainly not a direct representation of the female form - it has no face for a start.

    Primal people must have had some experience with bountiful ladies, I don't think you could extrapolate fat deposits from completely lean people.
    That's an interesting suggestion - although it's probably not a testable theory. Perhaps they did. I can certainly imagine that there could be fat people around in prehistoric societies.

    I recently posted a thread about Francis Parkman's book The Oregon Trail, which is interesting for a number of things. Parkman mentions very very large women among some of the North American Indians. There were people living an effectively prehistoric lifestyle. However, this is (well) post-contact, of course, and I guess it's possible that they'd got that way by buying in and consuming modern foodstuffs from whites - spirits, perhaps. But we're in the realm of conjecture here.

    How do you suppose those who inspired the carving could have gotten than way, on strictly primal food, under the demands of a primal lifestyle?
    Again, you're making it some kind of literal representation - despite having given a more complex relation between the figurine and the people earlier (viz., that you couldn't make anything like the figurine unless you'd seen a living person who was getting on that way).

    As for "primal food" and "primal lifestyle", what do you mean by those? So far as lifestyle goes, we can't assume we know everyone knocking around 24,000 years ago had the same kind of pattern of life. And as for "primal food" ... do you mean you're assuming everyone would have eaten mostly meat, fat and lean, and little of anything else? If so, well, you can put on weight eating like that. Dr Kurt Harris over at PaNu would advise you to eat like that, but he doesn't claim that you couldn't get overweight on that kind of diet:

    I do not dispute that it is harder to get obese on VLC. That is obvious. But if you have disturbed leptin signaling or otherwise screwed up body fat setpoint, you could become obese or stay obese (we see this all the time!) on VLC or ZC.
    http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2...arnivores.html

    There you are - there's a medical doctor who's a low-carb-diet proponent who says you can "become obese or stay obese" on such a diet and that he "sees this all the time".

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    When our civilization is being dug out from under piles of dirt, archeologists will wonder how the heck women could have been the shape of the super model photos they unearth, given the high carb, low fat diet typical of our era.

    Presumably just like our current culture idolizes the rail-thin, super-tall exceptional woman, the past cultures idolized the exceptionally fat ones.
    Liz.

    Zone diet on and off for several years....worked, but too much focus on exact meal composition
    Primal since July 2010...skinniest I've ever been and the least stressed about food

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    Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizch View Post
    When our civilization is being dug out from under piles of dirt, archeologists will wonder how the heck women could have been the shape of the super model photos they unearth ...
    One word: Photoshop.

    The images you see in a glossy magazine are sometimes heavily manipulated and that definitely includes slimming models down past even their current unhealthy reality.

    Interestingly, Vogue decided to put their foot down after the death from malnutrition of at least one model. IIRC, agencies were told in no uncertain terms that if they were sent girls who were dangerously thin they'd be sent home again. It seems to be something of a vicious circle insomuch as the people sending the clothes send what no normal healthy adult woman could get into.

    Did some Stone Age cultures, unlike us, admire large - shall we say buxom? - women. Why not? People did in France not so long ago:

    The woman, who belonged to the courtesan class, was celebrated for an embonpoint unusual for her age, which had earned for her the sobriquet of "Boule de Suif". Short and round ... an enormous bust filling out the bodice of her dress, she was yet attractive and much sought after, owing to her fresh and pleasing appearance. Her face was like a crimson apple, a peony-bud just bursting into bloom; she had two magnificent dark eyes, fringed with thick, heavy lashes, which cast a shadow into their depths; her mouth was small, ripe, kissable, and was furnished with the tiniest of white teeth. ...
    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3090/....htm#2H_4_0003

    However, I don't think the "Venus" necessarily represents an ideal of womanhood for its maker - the truth is no one does know what it represents.

    As for the question could anyone get fat on a low-carb diet - evidently so, if Dr Harris is a reliable witness. And he's talking about people who want to get thin, but whose biochemical signalling (leptin) is simply not working properly. If you didn't want to get thin, perhaps you could just choose to ignore the signals and keep eating.

    I think it's possible to make too much of the low-carb business anyway. Low-carb works for weight loss, and we know it works (whatever the media wiseacres might like to claim). However, there are a few pieces of evidence suggesting that even a relatively high-carb diet doesn't in itself make people fat. The problem, it seems, is eating a diet high in refined carbohydrate.

    These numbers are pretty similar to what Zelman reported in 1952 (6). Zelman wrote long before the obesity epidemic emerged and it took him 18 months, a full year and a half, to find 20 obese people who weren't alcoholics.
    http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.c...making-us.html

    AFAICT, the first self-consciously low-carb dieter, Banting, seems to have been filling his face with white bread and beer. (And maybe he could have had some of either, or even a little of both, but lots of both evidently wouldn't fly.)

    There have been some fat people, there may always have been some fat people, but the "obesity epidemic" had to wait for the jam doughnuts and Coca-Cola. Those kinds of junk can't have been large parts of most people's diets even as recently as the 1950s or it presumably wouldn't have taken Zelman those 18 months.

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