Skink's Primal Journal page 31

[naiadknight]

I'm stronger than probably half the guys I know, on a weight: weight I can lift/ handle ratio. I do know that you believe what you are taught when small. If you're told that girls can never be strong, you'll believe it and never attempt. If you're told that a girl can do any damn thing a guy does, you believe that too. In a lot of case with lifting heavy objects, it comes down to leverage and gravity. If you carry something heavy correctly, it will be less heavy to a thinner, shorter person because it's closer to center of mass and there's less gravity effect due to height from ground (it's a minute effect, but you notice it in your muscles.) While most guys can lift outright heavier weights, most guys also outweigh their counterpart females. If you go by weight to weight lifted ratio, most women actually come out on top of guys, solely from day to day needs. It's the comparison of 120 lb woman carrying the 75 lb bag of dog food versus a 150 lb male carrying the same thing. Yes, it's the same exact weight, but it means more when the person in question weighs less.
I will note that my parents raised us with the attitude of "Being a girl doesn't mean squat," meaning that there was no such thing as male only or female only actions or sports. If one of us had gone out for football, Mom and Dad probably would've gone up against DISD to make sure we were allowed to play. If we wanted to help, or be around when Dad was woodworking, they'd either let us help, or, if there's a chance of us hurting ourselves due to the weight or sharp objects, they'd say "no, we don't want any ER visits." The subject of gender just didn't come up, because it didn't apply. It was just that we didn't have the physical capability yet. It worked well for us. Granted, my parents ended up raising 2.5 tomboys (2 of us were out and out tomboys, the other flipflopped between that and girlygirl,) but it has served us well even into adulthood. The idea that we can't do something because of our gender just isn't something that crosses our minds, and thus it never blocks us. I realize the scientific reasoning of why females are typically physically less strong and yadayadayada, but that's more as a scientific "ok, good to know, now how do I work around that?"
I'd say don't let them have the idea that a female is somehow less (in strength capabilities or otherwise) than a male. If they do notice how their guy friends can lift more than they can, bring up the ratio I mentioned earlier. Don't bring up gender as to why they can't do something (unless it's physically impossible for a girl to do because it requires male organs or hormones), just give them the real reason "you could get hurt because you aren't strong enough yet," "Daddy's really the only one that can handle that weight, but if you work on it, you might be able to help him next year," that type of thing. Gender doesn't mean squat.

[Patrick]

That's so weird, Dave. On my walk home from the coffee shop, I was just thinking about what masculinity means these days.

In terms of how you're raised and how you raise kids, I'd say the only things to be careful of are giving them a sense of entitlement or a false sense of capability. Women make better fighter pilots. Men make better fire fighters. Is that fair? No. Does fairness matter? No. Suck it up.

I agree with what Naiad wrote, less the ratio stuff. That doesn't mean shit, in my opinion. A 180 lb soldier who needs to be pulled off the front lines isn't suddenly going to become 130 lb just because a woman is doing the carrying. We could create a ratio for everything. Consider the fighter pilot. A woman is a better combat pilot for two reasons: shorter distance from heart to head (can handle more Gs with less chance of blacking out), and a tendency to have greater dexterity. We can't say a guy is just as good because the ratio of the distance from his heart to his head is the same as the woman's ratio. We're talking distance, period. The guy will have a greater chance to black out sooner. End of story. Likewise, when it comes to lifting, we're talking weight, period.

Telling a kid, whether a boy or a girl, that they can do anything is as silly as belittling them when they try anything.

In terms of your daughter, Dave, Naiad is totally right: it's not about whether she could be strong enough to help without hurting herself, it's about how strong she is right now. The panels aren't going to take her size/gender/strength into account and downgrade proportionately. It's about saying "You're not there yet" (again, as Naiad said). Having the "yet" in there means there's room for her to build that capability. Whether she ever gets there is up to her in terms of what choices she makes and what she feels is important.

[naiadknight]

That's so weird, Dave. On my walk home from the coffee shop, I was just thinking about what masculinity means these days.

In terms of how you're raised and how you raise kids, I'd say the only things to be careful of are giving them a sense of entitlement or a false sense of capability. Women make better fighter pilots. Men make better fire fighters. Is that fair? No. Does fairness matter? No. Suck it up.

I agree with what Naiad wrote, less the ratio stuff. That doesn't mean shit, in my opinion. A 180 lb soldier who needs to be pulled off the front lines isn't suddenly going to become 130 lb just because a woman is doing the carrying. We could create a ratio for everything. Consider the fighter pilot. A woman is a better combat pilot for two reasons: shorter distance from heart to head (can handle more Gs with less chance of blacking out), and a tendency to have greater dexterity. We can't say a guy is just as good because the ratio of the distance from his heart to his head is the same as the woman's ratio. We're talking distance, period. The guy will have a greater chance to black out sooner. End of story. Likewise, when it comes to lifting, we're talking weight, period.

Telling a kid, whether a boy or a girl, that they can do anything is as silly as belittling them when they try anything.

In terms of your daughter, Dave, Naiad is totally right: it's not about whether she could be strong enough to help without hurting herself, it's about how strong she is right now. The panels aren't going to take her size/gender/strength into account and downgrade proportionately. It's about saying "You're not there yet" (again, as Naiad said). Having the "yet" in there means there's room for her to build that capability. Whether she ever gets there is up to her in terms of what choices she makes and what she feels is important.

Patrick, I agree, weights don't change because of a ratio. Neither should they. It's merely a way of saying "you'll hafta work your tail off for it, but you can be every inch as strong as anyone else (within bodily reason)." There are some things where life just ain't fair, and that's where the scientific "well, shit" moments come in. Given enough effort and time,ALMOST ANYTHING (within reason and anatomic bounds) is possible. It just depends on whether the person believes it to be worth that much effort. If I REALLY wanted to, and dropped everything to work for it, I would eventually be able to lift 500 lb. I don't, because that's not what is important to me.

[Patrick]

Given enough effort and time,ALMOST ANYTHING (within reason and anatomic bounds) is possible. It just depends on whether the person believes it to be worth that much effort.

Couldn't agree more!

[geostump]

Let your daughter help you with things that she can help you with around the house. That's what mom did with us and considering she had 4 girls, we were always busy. Most important thing to remember with a girl is to never use the word "can't". I tell my girls that life is full of endless possibilities, you just need do your hardest to succeed at the game.

[nachobrawler]

Skink...this is an area where, once again, you and I are very similar. I can relate to your issues and world as ALL of my offspring in this world are female.

And as a father, I am much like you too. I do not want to raise the same sort of girls that I met when I was growing up. You know, co-dependent "wait for a man to save them" types. Thats bullshit. Especially nowadays. I look at my life and I see many of the lines that segregated my parents into their associated gender roles are now GONE. Men nowadays cook just as much- if not more- than some women (its that way in my house. I do the VAST majority of the cooking). Women in a lot of families make the money and are the sole provider for their families (in 2008 when I last lost my job my wife supported us and I stayed at home that summer with my 4 kids! My baby girl was 5 months old). We are becoming a society with many of the same roles for both sexes. I see it in my marriage to my wife...and I see the lines only getting more and more blurred as we move down the road to the future. Men and Women need to be able to do the same things nowadays. Its the "crosstraining" principle we use at work here. If someone is out sick...there better be a back up who can handle their job without missing a beat or else everyone suffers.

I try to raise my girls as "manly" as possible. Within reason. I dont make them do certain things that they have no interest in that I do...like mowing the grass or fixing my mower. However, both of my oldest daughters want to hunt with me next winter. My son does too. We will ALL be going. Of course, not on the same day because that would be stupid and we wouldnt find anything due to our noise level. But I will take them out individually with me. And they will ALL undergo instruction on how to safely handle, control and shoot a firearm.

The other thing I would say...is some of it isnt up to you. My oldest is a girly girl but she plays soccer (and hard!). My middle is sort of a tom boy/ girlie girl who most recently played soccer but now she wants to go back to gymnastics again which she loved and was good at when she was younger. And my baby, so far, is a princess. She loves looking in the mirror and singing and dancing. My point is...individualize your fathering to each of them. Because they will each need it in different areas of their lives. But also present them with the same message. I tell mine when they are out on their own after I raise them...they will be able to take care of themselves. By themselves. And I dont want to hear about needing to marry some man to provide for them!

[geostump]

Skink...this is an area where, once again, you and I are very similar. I can relate to your issues and world as ALL of my offspring in this world are female.

And as a father, I am much like you too. I do not want to raise the same sort of girls that I met when I was growing up. You know, co-dependent "wait for a man to save them" types. Thats bullshit. Especially nowadays. I look at my life and I see many of the lines that segregated my parents into their associated gender roles are now GONE. Men nowadays cook just as much- if not more- than some women (its that way in my house. I do the VAST majority of the cooking). Women in a lot of families make the money and are the sole provider for their families (in 2008 when I last lost my job my wife supported us and I stayed at home that summer with my 4 kids! My baby girl was 5 months old). We are becoming a society with many of the same roles for both sexes. I see it in my marriage to my wife...and I see the lines only getting more and more blurred as we move down the road to the future. Men and Women need to be able to do the same things nowadays. Its the "crosstraining" principle we use at work here. If someone is out sick...there better be a back up who can handle their job without missing a beat or else everyone suffers.

I try to raise my girls as "manly" as possible. Within reason. I dont make them do certain things that they have no interest in that I do...like mowing the grass or fixing my mower. However, both of my oldest daughters want to hunt with me next winter. My son does too. We will ALL be going. Of course, not on the same day because that would be stupid and we wouldnt find anything due to our noise level. But I will take them out individually with me. And they will ALL undergo instruction on how to safely handle, control and shoot a firearm.

The other thing I would say...is some of it isnt up to you. My oldest is a girly girl but she plays soccer (and hard!). My middle is sort of a tom boy/ girlie girl who most recently played soccer but now she wants to go back to gymnastics again which she loved and was good at when she was younger. And my baby, so far, is a princess. She loves looking in the mirror and singing and dancing. My point is...individualize your fathering to each of them. Because they will each need it in different areas of their lives. But also present them with the same message. I tell mine when they are out on their own after I raise them...they will be able to take care of themselves. By themselves. And I dont want to hear about needing to marry some man to provide for them!

This times 1,000,000. My middle daughter(the tomboy) says she can do anything just as well as boy and she has the moxie to prove it. A lot of girls today I find are afraid to be tough because they think they won't be accepted. I am dead serious about that too. I see that with a lot of my daughters's friends and that scares me.

[skink531]

Exactly. Both my girsl(although they are very young) are both into being dainty princesses and being tomboys equally. I want them to know being a girl puts no limitations on their dreams. Yes there are physical limitaions, but that is for men and women alike. To quote Nacho, I will never be 6' tall. I was never good enough to wrestle in the olmypics, but it did take me to college. I will never win a strong man competition, but does that mean I'm not strong. I want my girls to know if you work hard for what you want then you can have it. Yes, some people have to work harder than others, but if you want it you can do it. The main thing is that what defines being a strong person is not based on gender.

And Nacho, I do most of the cooking in the house. I'm not less of a man for it, and my wife is not less of a woman. My oldest daughter has already expressed interest in fishing with me, of course we had to get her a disney princess fishing rod though. I teach them to kick a ball, throw a football and a baseball, and basically everything else I like to do they do too.

And I know my wife did not mean it the way it affected her. My wife is the biggest advocate that girls can do anything.

[Patrick]

I totally agree with the "it isn't up to you" thing. There's both nurture and nature at work for sure. I remember something from years ago: my friend's 4-year-old girl grabbed their very dominant 60-lb male Husky by the scruff of his neck and yelled in his face "NO, ARGUS! You -- NO!" That dog sat the fuck down and didn't screw with her. The little girl had greater authority over that dog than did her older brother (who was 8). You can't really raise someone to be like that. They either are or aren't. You can nurture and encourage it, but you really can't make someone something they aren't and no one should try.

Also, kids change. That 4-year-old is now 10 going on 18 and she burst into exclamations of joy when she got Ardene jewelry from me (just costume kinda jewelry -- 3 for $15 kinda stuff) this past Christmas. She was never a girlie girl, and still isn't I suppose, but she's headed that way.

Change is a constant. Don't fuck with it or you'll be steamrolled.

After all, people aren't one thing. They're like a sword: the material is an alloy, the synthesis of individual extremes wrapped into one; tempered by time; and honed by family, friends and life experiences.

[skink531]

Dinner tonight was chili. I used the recipe in Mark's cookbook. i spiced it up some since it is kind of bland the way it is in the book. Even then it still was pretty mild the way I made it(want everyone to be able to eat it), so i added some hot sauce to my bowl. Then it was garnished with sour cream, grated cheese, green onions, and salsa. I have enough left over to last for days. It was pretty damned good if I do say so myself(and I do). I ate a bowl and a half, and they were good size bowls. Later will be some 90% chocolate for desert.