Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: My thoughts on neoglucogenesis vs ketosis page

  1. #1
    Daemonized's Avatar
    Daemonized is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    2,253

    My thoughts on neoglucogenesis vs ketosis

    This is just my idea and it iis not going to be backed up by a study or any body of research. As I was riding in to work today (thinking about my protein intake) it occurred to me that if neoglucogenesis were and easy and efficient process then there would be no need for ketones and ketosis at all. As we all know here when one manages reduce one's carb intake below a certain point ketones are needed to get energy to the brain instead of glucose and as well as neoglucogenesis which turns some of one's protein intake into glucose. Neoglucogenesis will be taking some of the protein that could be used for repairing muscle tissue and essentially using it as fuel. So, if it were easy and efficient process then there would be no need for ketones. The fact that they do exist proves the point.
    Perhaps I should keep my mind on my riding, but alas I am easily distracted.

  2. #2
    yodiewan's Avatar
    yodiewan is online now Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    3,524
    Also, I would think that ketone synthesis is preferred to spare the protein that would be needed to fuel gluconeogenesis. Most of us (even those who are quite lean) have enough body fat to fuel us if we were to abstain from food for a long time (I'm talking week+, not IF) without too many detrimental effects. If we had to break down protein to supply glucsoe instead of ketones, I don't think we would last nearly as long.

    I guess this is basically the same thing you're saying... so I agree! Haha. I guess it also makes a good case for the fact that fat (and ketones derived from fat) is our default fuel.
    Last edited by yodiewan; 09-24-2010 at 09:06 AM.

  3. #3
    chronyx's Avatar
    chronyx is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    804
    Interesting thread; I find this sort of subject matter fascinating I don't know enough to contribute but eagerly awaiting replies from those who do...

  4. #4
    cillakat's Avatar
    cillakat is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    4,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemonized View Post
    This is just my idea and it iis not going to be backed up by a study or any body of research. As I was riding in to work today (thinking about my protein intake) it occurred to me that if neoglucogenesis were and easy and efficient process then there would be no need for ketones and ketosis at all .

    There would still be a need for ketones and ketosis




    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone
    Progesterone contains ketone and oxygenated functional groups, as well as two methyl branches.
    I think testosterone also containes a ketone body.

    Even if gluconeogenesis was not a 'costly' process, we'd still need ketones for a variety of metabolic and hormonal processes. And it seems pretty clear that even when ketosis and glycolysis are both options for energy production, there is benefit to ketosis.



    iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order


  5. #5
    Chefgerry's Avatar
    Chefgerry is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    In the frozen North
    Posts
    340
    We don't just burn one substrate at a time, it's always a combination. Gluconeogenesis happens repeatedly throughout the day, 24/7. It's there to help maintain a baseline glucose level.
    Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

  6. #6
    cillakat's Avatar
    cillakat is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    4,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Chefgerry View Post
    We don't just burn one substrate at a time, it's always a combination.
    If carbs are low enough it's always a combination

    It does appear though, that tipping the scales to ketosis has multiple benefits over glycolysis in cells that can use both.



    iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order


  7. #7
    Chefgerry's Avatar
    Chefgerry is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    In the frozen North
    Posts
    340
    Quote Originally Posted by cillakat View Post
    If carbs are low enough it's always a combination

    It does appear though, that tipping the scales to ketosis has multiple benefits over glycolysis in cells that can use both.
    Even if carbs aren't low, it's going to happen......it's more about the kind of fed state were in......overconsumption/less often underconsumption/more often. For me ketosis is not optimal, been there, done it for many years.....even though I do get there now and then, I carb cycle. Personally for me I don't see any advantage to ketosis, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be an optimal dietary strategy for many people, especially the obese. Again to qualify my opinion, I believe in energy balance first and foremost with adequate protein being the prime player. imo
    Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

  8. #8
    cillakat's Avatar
    cillakat is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    4,473
    Not trying to convince you, CG, as you've experimented and have figured out what's working for you.

    Just posting for general info for anyone reading:
    http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogsp...n-ketones.html
    Ketosis helps babies construct and grow their brains...snip...and the utilization of lactate also promotes the same use of acetyl-CoA and gives the neonates some of the advantages of ketoadaptation without being in heavy ketosis.)

    ...snip....
    Some people believe that being ketoadapted is the ideal - others will suggest that we can be more relaxed, and eat a mostly low sugar diet with a bit of intermittent fasting thrown in to give us periods of ketosis (though in general I don't recommend intermittent fasting for anyone with an eating disorder). Ketosis for the body means fat-burning (hip hip hooray!). For the brain, it means a lower seizure risk and a better environment for neuronal recovery and repair.

    ...snip...If you recall, GABA is the major inhibitory neurotransmitter in the mammalian nervous system.

    ...snip...

    Ketogenic diets seem to favor glutamate becoming GABA rather than aspartate. No one knows exactly why, but part of the reason has to do with how ketones are metabolized, and how ketosis favors using acetate (acetoacetate is one of the ketone bodies, after all) for fuel. Acetate becomes glutamine, an essential precursor for GABA.
    other CNS benefits of ketosis:

    Fasting is neuroprotective following traumatic brain injury


    LM Davis, JR Pauly, RD Readnower, … - Journal of …, 2008 - interscience.wiley.com
    ... To determine the neuroprotective effect of fasting after traumatic brain injury (TBI) and to elucidate ...
    However, the administration of ketones resulted in increased tissue sparing after moderate injury. ...
    The underlying mechanism appears to involve ketosis rather than hypoglycemia. ...

    Age-dependent reduction of cortical contusion volume by ketones after traumatic brain injury


    ML Prins, LS Fujima, DA Hovda - Journal of neuroscience …, 2005 - interscience.wiley.com
    ... of exogenous bOHB improves ATP following traumatic brain injury in adult rats. J Neurochem
    90:666–672. Rho JM, Kim DW, Robbins CA, Anderson GD, Schwartzkroin PA. 1999.

    The ketogenic diet increases mitochondrial uncoupling protein levels and activity


    PG Sullivan, NA Rippy, K Dorenbos, RC … - Annals of …, 2004 - interscience.wiley.com
    ... Cytochrome c release and caspase activation after traumatic brain injury. Brain Res
    2002;949:88–96. 13. Todorova MT, Tandon P, Madore RA, et al. The ketogenic diet inhibits
    epileptogenesis in EL mice: a genetic model for idiopathic epilepsy. Epilepsia 2000;41:933–940. ...
    Cited by 80 - Related articles - BL Direct - All 5 versions


    I guess all i'm saying at the end of the day is that I'm currently convinced that signficant ketosis is biologically appropriate for humans and has benefits over glycolysis once we ketoadapt.




    iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order


  9. #9
    Chefgerry's Avatar
    Chefgerry is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    In the frozen North
    Posts
    340
    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    No doubt there are benefits, and I personally feel that it's perfectly acceptable, created through human adaption, but for ever, as the only strategy?........My assertion was in the compliance of ketosis as a lifestyle and lifelong dietary strategy........most people can't maintain ketosis, nor does MDA suggest it to be maintain for any length of time. Anytime, regardless of the subject matter when the pendulum is swung to an extreme I get more critical......and it certainly could just be me considering I have a hard time with anything that dictates one solution, whether it be veganism to religion. Cheers.
    Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •