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  1. #11
    Griff's Avatar
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    Ditch the idea of "maintenance - 500." It doesn't really work that way. "Calories in, Calories out" is largely a CW myth. I was eating more than 4,000 calories of food per day, at about 80% fat, when I started - and I lost weight. It isn't about the calories.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff View Post
    Ditch the idea of "maintenance - 500." It doesn't really work that way. "Calories in, Calories out" is largely a CW myth. I was eating more than 4,000 calories of food per day, at about 80% fat, when I started - and I lost weight. It isn't about the calories.
    I've been told so many conflicting things on this, and read a fair amount too. Will take this discussion to another thread though
    Last edited by atc; 09-15-2010 at 07:12 AM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by atc View Post
    I've been told so much conflicting things on this, and read a fair amount too. Will take this discussion to another thread though
    Yes, this is a frequently debated topic. I am more on the side of calories in calories out based on my experience. I would love to be able to eat 3000 calories per day, but I would be obese if I did. I found my maintenance level of around 1900-2000 calories per day, and in order to lose weight, I have to hit about 1600-1700. That's even with half my calories being fat and only getting around 50-100g carbs per day. Everyone is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff View Post
    Ditch the idea of "maintenance - 500." It doesn't really work that way. "Calories in, Calories out" is largely a CW myth. I was eating more than 4,000 calories of food per day, at about 80% fat, when I started - and I lost weight. It isn't about the calories.
    i think the important thing here is 'when i started' i was eating 4000 calories... when one makes that 'switch' from ketosis to keto adapted or carb burning to ketoadapted there is a 'sparing' effect. it doesnt last forever and i doubt you would lose(without exercise factored) on 4000 calories now...

    My take on one CONVERTING to keto and the fact that it needs to be high FAT, not high protein if you want to make the fat-burning switch. I am no science expert but this is how I see it:

    The subject of fat storage is a complex one. It is true that when we eat a high carb diet, the main hormone regulating fat storage is insulin, however, when eating a high fat diet with little or no carbs then there are other mechanisms. Much of my Journal is about testing Taubs theory of "no carbs, no insulin, no fat gain". I found this to be wrong.

    First, it appears that there is a lot of fat loss because initially our bodies are conditioned to process carbs. Since there is plenty of glucose in our blood, our cells are conditioned to utilize this as their primary fuel. Metabolizing glucose is a rather simple process much like yeast and fermentation.

    For our cells to use fatty acids as the primary fuel is much more complex. Mitochondria are needed for this process. Since most of our lives we’ve had plenty of glucose available as fuel, we only have the minimum level of mitochondria in our cells and not near enough to convert fatty acids directly to fuel.

    When we stop eating carbs and start eating fats, our bodies are very inefficient in using the new fuel. Our cells are demanding glucose as they can’t use fatty acids efficiently until they create more mitochondria which takes time (often several months). The fat we eat (and the body fat we store) is in the form of triglycerides. This is three fatty acids clustered around a glycerol molecule. Glycerol can be converted to glucose, but it is very inefficient. It takes 2 glycerol molecules to make one glucose molecule. Our liver will take the triglycerides we are eating (as well as some from body fat), strip off the fatty acids and convert the glycerol to glucose as this is what our cells need until they adapt and make more mitochondria to be able to use fatty acids directly. This means that the body needs two triglycerides and is throwing away 6 fatty acids (75% of the energy) just to be able to make one molecule of glucose. And, you guess it, we start rapidly loosing weight. (the excess fatty acids are turned into ketones and eliminated through sweat, breath, and urine.) If the body is still short glucose it will use dietary protein as well as sacrifice muscle tissue to create the needed glucose through the process of gluconeogenisis. We get the impression that calories don’t count because we just can’t eat enough food to create the necessary glucose that our body wants from the fat we are eating when 75% of the energy is being thrown away because the cells can’t use it. Therefore, the body consumes body fat and some muscle tissue to make up the short fall in glucose and we lose weight.

    Over time, our bodies begin to adapt to the new fuel source. The cells add mitochondria and most of our body tissues will convert to using fatty acids and/or ketones as fuel rather than glucose. When this happens we find that the level of ketones being thrown away in the urine drop to very low levels (because our body is now using them), and weight loss slows or stops completely. Suddenly calories start to count again, and in a big way because now our bodies are using 100% of the energy contained in the fat as the cells are using the three fatty acids directly as fuel and the left over glycerol is still being converted to glucose. Body fat is no longer being used to fill in the energy gap.

    Now comes the issue of body fat storage. When we are eating fat and protein and little or no carbohydrate, fat storage is accomplished through an enzyme called ASP (Acylation Stimulating Protein). This little jewel has the ability to directly store fat in the fat cells bypassing the glucose and insulin pathways.

    On a zero carb diet(protein and fat), excess fatty acids not immediately needed for energy will be directly stored in the fat cells through ASP. This stored fat will then be called upon as the body needs energy and is mobilized out of the fat cells through Hormone Sensitive Lipase (HSL) which will only allow body fat metabolism if insulin, a hormone, is low, hence ‘hormone sensitive’.

    As long as the total fat stored is equal to the total fat consumed, body fat will not accumulate. However, if, on average, less energy is needed than was stored, not all fat stored by ASP from the ZC meals will be remobilized by HSL and body fat will rise. So eventually, calories start to count again.

    When someone first converts from a lifetime of high carb they can eat 4,000 to 5,000 calories per day and lose weight. The body cant use most of the energy so it threw it away(FOR A TIME PERIOD). The ketones in my urine were running the darkest color on the Ketostix, and breath has an acetone smell from ketones being eliminated through the breath.

    After about 18 months the body has adapted to using fatty acids rather than glucose as its primary fuel and the ketone levels dropped to Trace levels and the acetone breath went away. Once their bodies are fully adapted to using fatty acids as their primary fuel, they start to gain weight unless they reduce their calorie intake.

    Hope this makes sense. If not, feel free to ask questions and I’ll do my best to answer.

    There are a couple of issues. The primary issue seems to be whether our bodies have adapted to the food. In the case of carbs, the cellular metabolism is fermentive and all cells can use glucose without adapting, however, if the main fuel available suddenly becomes fatty acids, then the cells must create mitochondria to be able to use the fatty acids directly as fuel.
    Until sufficient mitochondria and the associated enzymes have been built up in the cells, the cell’s ability to take up the available energy from fatty acids is impaired and the results are the same as if we just didn’t eat those fatty acids in the first place as the energy from them is mostly unavailable. In other words, it appears that calories don’t count. Once the cells adapt, then either form of energy source (glucose or fatty acids) will be efficiently metabolized and generally speaking, weight will be gained or lost depending on overall energy balance.

    In a nutshell, I think this is WHY carb cycling works to benefit fat loss. It is very very hormonally related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
    Yes, this is a frequently debated topic. I am more on the side of calories in calories out based on my experience. I would love to be able to eat 3000 calories per day, but I would be obese if I did. I found my maintenance level of around 1900-2000 calories per day, and in order to lose weight, I have to hit about 1600-1700. That's even with half my calories being fat and only getting around 50-100g carbs per day. Everyone is different.
    i agree mostly. i think i have figured out how to cycle in and out carbs to the poin that calories dont really matter. if i was eating the same macros everyday, then yea i do think calories matter. it is simply because the body expects and gets use to the same macros or foods everyday (like 2000 cals and 50 carbs)

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    Nice breakdown MalPaz. That makes sense to me. I couldn't figure out how people we eating more than double the calories that I was eating, and they were losing weight. I really haven't had an interest or need to get into ketosis, so that's probably why. I have kept my carbs around 50-100g, and I like it there. So eating like that, for me to lose fat, I need to have a caloric deficit.

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    Leave out the fruit and corn. Eat a LOT more leafy greens and colorful veggies. I would say that you could the stop counting carbs. That nit picky shit drives me nuts, personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
    Nice breakdown MalPaz. That makes sense to me. I couldn't figure out how people we eating more than double the calories that I was eating, and they were losing weight. I really haven't had an interest or need to get into ketosis, so that's probably why. I have kept my carbs around 50-100g, and I like it there. So eating like that, for me to lose fat, I need to have a caloric deficit.
    This weekend while looking at the back of a pack of bacon i noticed there was 2 calorie counts. 210cal for uncooked and 80cal for cooked. There it is plain as day, the magic of eating 4000 calories of mostly fat. Unless you are licking the pan and plate clean I don't think you are getting anywhere near the calories from fat you think you are.

    This plus Pee-tones surely would make it seem that calorie in vs calorie out is wrong. Which, I suppose, is still kind of true since how do you measure those variables?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalPaz View Post
    i think the important thing here is 'when i started' i was eating 4000 calories... when one makes that 'switch' from ketosis to keto adapted or carb burning to ketoadapted there is a 'sparing' effect. it doesnt last forever and i doubt you would lose(without exercise factored) on 4000 calories now...

    My take on one CONVERTING to keto and the fact that it needs to be high FAT, not high protein if you want to make the fat-burning switch. I am no science expert but this is how I see it:

    The subject of fat storage is a complex one. It is true that when we eat a high carb diet, the main hormone regulating fat storage is insulin, however, when eating a high fat diet with little or no carbs then there are other mechanisms. Much of my Journal is about testing Taubs theory of "no carbs, no insulin, no fat gain". I found this to be wrong.

    First, it appears that there is a lot of fat loss because initially our bodies are conditioned to process carbs. Since there is plenty of glucose in our blood, our cells are conditioned to utilize this as their primary fuel. Metabolizing glucose is a rather simple process much like yeast and fermentation.

    For our cells to use fatty acids as the primary fuel is much more complex. Mitochondria are needed for this process. Since most of our lives we’ve had plenty of glucose available as fuel, we only have the minimum level of mitochondria in our cells and not near enough to convert fatty acids directly to fuel.

    When we stop eating carbs and start eating fats, our bodies are very inefficient in using the new fuel. Our cells are demanding glucose as they can’t use fatty acids efficiently until they create more mitochondria which takes time (often several months). The fat we eat (and the body fat we store) is in the form of triglycerides. This is three fatty acids clustered around a glycerol molecule. Glycerol can be converted to glucose, but it is very inefficient. It takes 2 glycerol molecules to make one glucose molecule. Our liver will take the triglycerides we are eating (as well as some from body fat), strip off the fatty acids and convert the glycerol to glucose as this is what our cells need until they adapt and make more mitochondria to be able to use fatty acids directly. This means that the body needs two triglycerides and is throwing away 6 fatty acids (75% of the energy) just to be able to make one molecule of glucose. And, you guess it, we start rapidly loosing weight. (the excess fatty acids are turned into ketones and eliminated through sweat, breath, and urine.) If the body is still short glucose it will use dietary protein as well as sacrifice muscle tissue to create the needed glucose through the process of gluconeogenisis. We get the impression that calories don’t count because we just can’t eat enough food to create the necessary glucose that our body wants from the fat we are eating when 75% of the energy is being thrown away because the cells can’t use it. Therefore, the body consumes body fat and some muscle tissue to make up the short fall in glucose and we lose weight.

    Over time, our bodies begin to adapt to the new fuel source. The cells add mitochondria and most of our body tissues will convert to using fatty acids and/or ketones as fuel rather than glucose. When this happens we find that the level of ketones being thrown away in the urine drop to very low levels (because our body is now using them), and weight loss slows or stops completely. Suddenly calories start to count again, and in a big way because now our bodies are using 100% of the energy contained in the fat as the cells are using the three fatty acids directly as fuel and the left over glycerol is still being converted to glucose. Body fat is no longer being used to fill in the energy gap.

    Now comes the issue of body fat storage. When we are eating fat and protein and little or no carbohydrate, fat storage is accomplished through an enzyme called ASP (Acylation Stimulating Protein). This little jewel has the ability to directly store fat in the fat cells bypassing the glucose and insulin pathways.

    On a zero carb diet(protein and fat), excess fatty acids not immediately needed for energy will be directly stored in the fat cells through ASP. This stored fat will then be called upon as the body needs energy and is mobilized out of the fat cells through Hormone Sensitive Lipase (HSL) which will only allow body fat metabolism if insulin, a hormone, is low, hence ‘hormone sensitive’.

    As long as the total fat stored is equal to the total fat consumed, body fat will not accumulate. However, if, on average, less energy is needed than was stored, not all fat stored by ASP from the ZC meals will be remobilized by HSL and body fat will rise. So eventually, calories start to count again.

    When someone first converts from a lifetime of high carb they can eat 4,000 to 5,000 calories per day and lose weight. The body cant use most of the energy so it threw it away(FOR A TIME PERIOD). The ketones in my urine were running the darkest color on the Ketostix, and breath has an acetone smell from ketones being eliminated through the breath.

    After about 18 months the body has adapted to using fatty acids rather than glucose as its primary fuel and the ketone levels dropped to Trace levels and the acetone breath went away. Once their bodies are fully adapted to using fatty acids as their primary fuel, they start to gain weight unless they reduce their calorie intake.

    Hope this makes sense. If not, feel free to ask questions and I’ll do my best to answer.

    There are a couple of issues. The primary issue seems to be whether our bodies have adapted to the food. In the case of carbs, the cellular metabolism is fermentive and all cells can use glucose without adapting, however, if the main fuel available suddenly becomes fatty acids, then the cells must create mitochondria to be able to use the fatty acids directly as fuel.
    Until sufficient mitochondria and the associated enzymes have been built up in the cells, the cell’s ability to take up the available energy from fatty acids is impaired and the results are the same as if we just didn’t eat those fatty acids in the first place as the energy from them is mostly unavailable. In other words, it appears that calories don’t count. Once the cells adapt, then either form of energy source (glucose or fatty acids) will be efficiently metabolized and generally speaking, weight will be gained or lost depending on overall energy balance.

    In a nutshell, I think this is WHY carb cycling works to benefit fat loss. It is very very hormonally related.

    Wow....single

    You had me at 18 months. You. Had. Me. At. 18 months. That is the exact time period I notice significant changes in cut and ripped and had to alter caloric intake. Great stuff!

  10. #20
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    Wow! Awesome explanation MalPaz!

    Quote Originally Posted by MalPaz View Post
    In a nutshell, I think this is WHY carb cycling works to benefit fat loss. It is very very hormonally related.
    Could you explain further how carb cycling works metabolically/hormonally?

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