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  1. #81
    Jasetyn's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    Interesting! I think I may just buy this book as purely primal has not worked for me for several reasons (though I still think it is excellent ). As an indigenous person I've struggled with the idea of eating like my people once did as our tribe had an entire clan dedicated to wild tuber foraging! Very little to no fruit or sugar of any kind beyond that. Thanks for the info!

  2. #82
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    Looks like an interesting book. Anyone has further comments/reviews?

  3. #83
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    Read it, finally. AWESOME. My kind of book. They really argue their points well and their overall philosophy is sound. If we just find the point where a nutrient starts doing more harm than good then we can limit our consumption to that and no more, and thus minimize death and doom. I have little that I could add to it that wouldn't be nit-picking.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    Read it, finally. AWESOME. My kind of book.
    +1 Their approach is very analytical. No paleo-fantasy BS about what paleo man ate, which is a relief. The best diet book I've read.

    Gordo

  5. #85
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    He does mention that zinc deficiency is rampant, but just that he also thinks that too much zinc is a bad thing. It does seem a bit implausible that the optimal intake of zinc would fall within such a narrow range.

    As for not completely backing everything up all of the time, it certainly doesn't follow that we should just follow the entire book because he's a Phd and seems to know what he's talking about. But if he is putting the ideas out there at least it is a start. Nutritional science has been so inadequate for so long and most researchers are too busy trying to figure out how to invent new supplements from pond weed, "prove" that saturated fat causes impotence or that 30g of oat bran fiber per day will make you immortal. Some citations are hard to come by and maybe he is in the know about something. But good call on less than perfect citations, and we should definitely treat those points as hypotheses and no more, yet.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    As for not completely backing everything up all of the time, it certainly doesn't follow that we should just follow the entire book because he's a Phd and seems to know what he's talking about. But if he is putting the ideas out there at least it is a start.
    About an hour ago, I was thinking "Damn, I need to go back and clarify that I really do like the book and that there is such a tremendous lot of incredible, well-organized, well-referenced material in it"

    I was so negative in my other post - as usual, my expectations are too high. Both for myself and other people. I need to f*ckin' chill. Seriously.




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  7. #87
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    Lol. Well I was impressed with the skeptical attitude. There are just so many postulates throughout the whole thing that it is easy to go into automatic-belief mode, and since I already agreed with much of it that only strengthens its hyponotic effect. Sometimes it is a great thing to be critical, even harsh, and even with regards to people and books we like such as the Jaminets and Perfect Health Diet. Look at Nietzsche, always pissed off, always suffering, always going to ugly places that require at least a sojourn. We can't be that awesome all of the time, though, or else we have no fun.

    I was skeptical at first, mainly because I thought that it was a nutrient-deficient diet but now I realize that with the right foods and supplements everything can be taken care of. But when I read it I found myself blown away with a good nutritional philosophy and conclusions that meshed with what I had already come to believe, and ones that reconciles things that considered paradoxical. Like fiber-intake. Some studies show that it is horrible for you but some show that it is good. Turns out there is a goldilocks zone and more isn't better. Grain fiber always sucks, of course.

    When I was reading it I did consider that these guys are recommending a 20% carb diet, and I was thinking to myself how good for the body ketosis was. But then they resolved my complaints with the proposition of keto-fasting with coconut oil. That induces the autophagy and cell maintenance. One thing they could have done was emphasized gelatin proteins to balance methionine-containing proteins. I do better with more protein like 25% of calories, but it isn't taxing on the body if 10% is gelatin. But that is what I would count as a nit-pick. I posed that question to Robb Wolf and Matt Lalonde on the upcoming The Healthy Skeptic podcast, so maybe they will have something to say about the whole issue. I'm not going to get my hopes up, though.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by cillakat View Post
    I will never understand the hostility to this idea.
    My hostility to the paleo-fantasy approach stems from using the fantasy as a starting point. Cordain and de Vany both do this. It throws everything they say into doubt and causes them to come up with some really dumb stuff. The thing I like about PHD is that they tell you their reasoning and their logic. You can decide for yourself whether you agree. You can check their references. Checking someone's paleo-fantasy is a little more difficult.

    Gordo

  9. #89
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    I agree with that, Gordo. I also think I know what Cillakat is saying and I think we all agree. This is an issue of paleo-fantasy vs. the evolutionary axiom. Okay so Cordain gets some data on all of the known tribes in paleo africa, crunches some numbers and proscribes macronutrient ratios which he then tries to prove. He notices that they have lots of protein, little palmitic acid, etc etc and then these become the basis for dietary advice and all evidence is used to try to substantiate these things. Never mind the French Paradox or the methionine issue, paleo is paleo. When you are "On THE Paleo diet" having to do exactly what Grok did (or we think he did, or we say he did) and there is no room for debate. All dairy is always bad. Paleo man didn't eat any dairy and therefore it's bad and now we need evidence to prove what we already know. Let's use pasteurized grain-fed milk to show that dairy is bad. Paleo diets were net-alkalinizing and therefore all diets need to be, and you just know that it is the case that acid/alkaline balance is an important idea and not dumb, because paleo man was net-alkalinzing and therefore we just assume that he evolved to have lazy kidneys who can't manage on their own. Now we have to find evidence for it like some Inuit with osteoporosis. Oh and of course palmitic acid is death and so these Inuit with atherosclerosis are proof of it. Gordo mentuons Devany. Devany is great sometimes but he is in a realm of his own. He just assumes that paleo man always killed quickly like a cheetah and isn't built for running, despite contrary evidence. Or maybe he observes that chronic cardio sucks and then tries to integrate it into evolution (wrongly) so as to give it paleo legitimacy. Of course we know from basic physics that chronic cardio sucks so I don't see where the paleo assumptions are needed. Heh, that's paleo fantasy. Waaay too much weight placed upon a priori speculation and trying to make the data fit the dogma.

    In short, this approach leads to bias, when what we want is well-founded speculation grounded in a sound theoretical principle. We just need a hypotheses generator and a connecting principle. A way to get work done faster and a theory by which to evaluate new hypotheses.

    There is a better approach to all of this. It is what Emily Deans and Dr. T and Billy at Evomed do. It is the evolutionary axiom applied to nutrition and medicine, and that is what we really ought to be calling what we do. This is my post on paleohacks.

    Which moniker do you prefer? Paleo 2.0 or Post-Paleo - Paleo Hacks.com
    Last edited by Stabby; 04-02-2011 at 07:13 PM.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

  10. #90
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    I'm in the process of reading this book right now. It's great! I like how the information is presented without too much personal bias in the writing style.

    Have any of you who have read The Perfect Health Diet also read Deep Nutrition? I'm intrigued by that as well, but I'm hesistant to buy another book at the moment if they're similar!

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