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  1. #41
    doug's Avatar
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    I am glad this is being discussed. I bought the book and just started my second read through. There are a lot of facinating concepts. Two concepts in particular protein restriction and the ketogenic fast.

    Overall I think it is worth reading and it is probably more right than wrong.

  2. #42
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    I thought it was a good book. It's the first one I can recommend to people about paleo. I send them the book and Panus 12 steps.
    I think they recommend a little too much rice and fruit though. I think it may be beneficial to have the slightly higher carb levels they recommend, just not while getting empty calories and fructose! I get mine from sweet potatoes and potatoes mostly.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by grokka View Post
    I thought it was a good book. It's the first one I can recommend to people about paleo. I send them the book and Panus 12 steps.
    I think they recommend a little too much rice and fruit though. I think it may be beneficial to have the slightly higher carb levels they recommend, just not while getting empty calories and fructose! I get mine from sweet potatoes and potatoes mostly.
    That is weird. I took the exact opposite message on fructose from the book. I took from it that fructose should absolutely be minimized and potatoes/tubers/rice are a beneficial source of calories for that reason.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    That is weird. I took the exact opposite message on fructose from the book. I took from it that fructose should absolutely be minimized and potatoes/tubers/rice are a beneficial source of calories for that reason.
    2nd. And it's not so much that rice is *beneficial* as much as it is 'acceptable'. Those two things are very different.



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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cillakat View Post
    2nd. And it's not so much that rice is *beneficial* as much as it is 'acceptable'. Those two things are very different.
    Very true. Definitely should be emphasized.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRae View Post
    nuts and seeds having *higher* levels of phytic acid than GRAINS or LEGUMES!
    true, which is why they are ideally soaked, or when appropriate, sprouted before use. However, our intake should be minimal regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    I am glad this is being discussed. I bought the book and just started my second read through. There are a lot of facinating concepts. Two concepts in particular protein restriction and the ketogenic fast.

    Overall I think it is worth reading and it is probably more right than wrong.
    I'm not sure I agree with the protein restriction to the degree they emphasize it. Certainly no more than 30% of cals, but limited to 200 cals total? (ETA: this isn't correct...it's 200-600 cals) As Stabby has pointed out numerous times, it appears that we are absolutely adapted for significant protein consumption.
    Last edited by cillakat; 11-09-2010 at 05:45 PM.



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  7. #47
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    My sis bought the book and I'm borrowing it.

    I'd love to talk a/b their supp recs, specifically the 'supplement copper and avoid extra zinc' advice. I thought zinc deficiency was far more common than copper deficiency...

    Also, as far as macro recs go, they have a range for both carbs and protein. (Although I agree they really stress the protein restriction...)

    Carbs: 200-600 cals (50-150 g) a day (plus 1/2 lb of non starchy veg) w/ 400 cals (100g) being the general rec for most folks
    Protein: 200-600 cals (50-150 g) a day, but around 500-600 cals *if carbs are limited*

    Carb and Protein together should add up to at least 600 cals or 150 g total (so if you go light on one, up the other etc.)

    I agree w/ both doug and cillakat that the book promotes choosing low toxin starches over fructose for the majority of carb intake. They also mention that if/when you eat fruit, do NOT eat it w/ PUFAs as the fructose can damage PUFAs. (So keep your berries w/ cream, etc...Makes me wonder about fruit salsas and fish types of dishes...)
    Last edited by FairyRae; 11-08-2010 at 06:31 PM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRae View Post
    I'd love to talk a/b their supp recs, specifically the 'supplement copper and avoid extra zinc' advice. I thought zinc deficiency was far more common than copper deficiency...
    Time tends to be in short supply today so there isn't as much time to talk about this as I'd like but ftmp and for most people, zinc deficiency tends to be problematic - especially if liver is being ingested regularly. Individuals can 'track and treat'....track their intake of zinc and copper and treat insufficiency based on symptoms.


    Carbs: 200-600 cals (50-150 g) a day (plus 1/2 lb of non starchy veg) w/ 400 cals (100g) being the general rec for most folks
    Protein: 200-600 cals (50-150 g) a day, but around 500-600 cals *if carbs are limited*

    Carb and Protein together should add up to at least 600 cals or 150 g total (so if you go light on one, up the other etc.)
    - and at least 200cal of each, why white rice rather than the more nutrient dense options?. For those struggling with weight loss and sugar addiction, minimizing starch may be beneficial.

    WRT 'starch as a requirement' theory. His position is understandable: our livers aren't big enough, effective enough to produce all of our glucose needs via gluconeogensis. However, there are enough errors in the book along with his heavy reliance of 'correlation' that he puts forth as gospel truth that make me wonder if he couldn't be wrong about this as well.

    They also mention that if/when you eat fruit, do NOT eat it w/ PUFAs as the fructose can damage PUFAs. (So keep your berries w/ cream, etc...Makes me wonder about fruit salsas and fish types of dishes...)
    I guess it depends on how crazy you want to make yourself, what your personal goals are, how important those food combinations are to you etc etc. I find myself rarely eating fruit but if I those kinds of combos were important. meaningful parts of my food intake, I'd probably keep going with it while accepting that it wasn't optimal and choosing not to worry about it.

    K
    Last edited by cillakat; 11-09-2010 at 05:50 PM.



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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by cillakat View Post
    I don't have as much time to talk about this as I'd like but ftmp and for most people, I disagree with his recommendation on this one. Individuals can 'track and treat'....track their intake of zinc and copper and treat insufficiency based on symptoms.
    Would love to hear more on the symptoms for tracking and treating this!! (I def. think I lean towards more zinc def. than copper def....)


    - and at least 200cal of each, minimum I still mostly disagree with the white rice suggstion....it's just so void of nutrition compared to a sweet potato. and for those struggling with weight loss/addiction, I'd probably still lean toward less/no starch.
    I personally *feel it* if I eat white rice, far more so than eating sweet potato etc. It is uncomfortable--like a sugar high or something...Its something I just prefer *not* to eat. (I don't like it any way...)

    I'm not sure I'm yet on board with the 'starch as a requirement' theory. I understand his position - that our livers aren't big enough, effective enough to produce all of our glucose needs via gluconeogensis.
    I was wondering if one could get the amount of glucose he recs from non-starchy veg (looking at net carbs instead of total carbs, and aiming to get at least 50 net carbs from non-starchy veg?) I personally don't think I would feel better eating anywhere near the amount of starch recommended in the book.

    but i don't know.... there are enough examples in the book of his heavy reliance of 'correlation' that he puts forth as gospel truth and I do think he's wrong about a number of things so I'm not sure he's right about this one.
    I'd love to see what else you and others feel they're wrong on. I personally think the 'eat what you are, all mammals eat the same thing' stuff is strange and not really accurate...

    I guess it depends on how crazy you want to make yourself, what your personal goals are, how important those food combinations are to you etc etc. I find myself rarely eating fruit but if I those kinds of combos were important. meaningful parts of my food intake, I'd probably keep going with it while accepting that it wasn't optimal and choosing not to worry about it.
    Thanks. I've never been one for food combining, although this kind of freaked me out. I do a green smoothie each day w/ 1/2-1 cup berries, 2.5 cups mixed greens, coconut milk, avocado and stevia. I had been drinking it w/ salmon for my first meal of the day, and its such a quick and easy way to get in a good amount of nutrient dense produce and I like drinking it! I *don't* want to drink it completely separately from meals (I really like to IF and eat all my food at once during 2 big meals) sooo... I may try not to eat it w/ salmon b/c of the PUFAs but maybe w/ beef? We'll see....

  10. #50
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    White rice/brown rice. That was equated with beriberi/no beriberi. Put another way--- no thiamine/ thiamine.
    Tayatha om bekandze

    Bekandze maha bekandze

    Randza samu gate soha

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