Vitamin D: more factors to consider page 2

[hazyjane]

Too bad. Even a tiny amount of gluten every once in a while seems to be capable of preventing remission with autoimmune disorders, and recovery frequently requires avoidance of casein and other particular foods as well. Wheat apparently can also suppress vitamin D metabolism, so it appears that everything is connected. I'd just posted on autoimmune and gluten on an autoimmune thread.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...330#post176330

Yes- eating gluten can cause an autoimmune flare-up that can last up to 8 months according to Datis Kharrazian (who's book on thyroid/autoimmune disorders is amazing!!) So, NOT WORTH IT!!

[cillakat]

Too bad. Even a tiny amount of gluten every once in a while seems to be capable of preventing remission with autoimmune disorders,

My experience is showing though that when D is replete, a tiny amount of gluten, while never a good idea, is not harmful like it is when D is seriously deficient.

I'm hesitant to discuss my experiences in this area lest it be misconstrued as an implication that eating wheat is acceptable. But fwiw, my annual celiac related blood panels are all perfect in spite of occasional gluten ingestion (ie birthday celebration of a family member).

[MikkiB]

Katherine!!!! Stop ingesting your family members, right now!!!!! Step ... away... from.... Grandma....

[Paleo Man]

My experience is showing though that when D is replete, a tiny amount of gluten, while never a good idea, is not harmful like it is when D is seriously deficient.

I'm hesitant to discuss my experiences in this area lest it be misconstrued as an implication that eating wheat is acceptable. But fwiw, my annual celiac related blood panels are all perfect in spite of occasional gluten ingestion (ie birthday celebration of a family member).

If Kenneth Fine, MD, is correct, then unless sufficient intestinal damage is evident, blood tests won't show elevated levels of anti-gliadin or anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies associated with an adaptive immune system response to gluten. This is apparently why Dr. Fine's very sensitive stool testing for gluten associated antibodies shows triple the incidence of blood testing. In effect, gluten ingestion causes antibodies to form in the gut and as gluten associated damage progresses, intestinal contents (including gluten fragments) leak into the bloodstream and antibodies are found in the blood as well.

If a person has been strictly off gluten for quite a while and takes effective steps to heal their intestinal damage and repair the leaky gut, I would expect that the communication between the gut and the blood stream would normalize. In such a case, if the gluten intolerant person for some reason (hard to fathom) decided to indulge in gluten, it might well be that the newly acquired integrity of the gut would prevent gluten fragments and gut antibodies from reaching circulation and showing in a gluten antibody blood test. As opposed to Dr. Fine's more sensitive stool testing.

I am aware of instances where someone with celiac DNA always tests negative by blood for gluten associated antibodies, tests positive by stool, and has serious and disabling autoimmune disease that is put into complete remission by a gluten free diet. Apparently a positive blood test is not a prerequisite to the development of serious autoimmune issues from ingestion of gluten. Gluten is a match. Autoimmunity is gasoline.

I wouldn't be surprised if Vitamin D at high levels, since it is in effect a type of steroid hormone, wouldn't modulate the adaptive immune response and especially autoimmunity, to suppress it to some extent. As prednisone would appear to do. But I wouldn't use it and assume that occasional wheat indulgences were not harmful, especially to anyone who has already presented with antibodies in blood or stool.

[Bisous]

Katherine!!!! Stop ingesting your family members, right now!!!!! Step ... away... from.... Grandma....

It's okay if Grandma is gluten-free.

[Katie82]

If a person has been strictly off gluten for quite a while and takes effective steps to heal their intestinal damage and repair the leaky gut, I would expect that the communication between the gut and the blood stream would normalize.

Paleo Man, I'm curious what you think is the appropriate diet to heal leaky gut? I've read Elaine Gottschall's book and the Specific Carbohydrate Diet is pretty much primal + certain legumes (which I don't understand since they are all starch and fiber which I thought was irritating to the gut). She says you have to adhere to the diet 100% or else you're wasting your time basically. Now, I'd rather just do Paleo because I don't believe in eating dairy or legumes anyway, but how important do you think it is to never "cheat" when you are trying to heal intestinal damage?
I'm trying to convince my mom to get on board w/ this because I already am (w/ occasional slip-ups) and I really want to help her. She would probably be more open to doing it if the diet wasn't quite so strict and if she thought she would be healed in 1-2 years or something.

EDIT: I just read in the autoimmune thread that you say 100% compliance is necessary. but that's about GFCF diets. Are people really healing themselves and still eating other grains, and legumes, etc? Is the gluten and casein really the only thing that matters for autoimmune sufferers?

[hazyjane]

Paleo Man, I'm curious what you think is the appropriate diet to heal leaky gut? I've read Elaine Gottschall's book and the Specific Carbohydrate Diet is pretty much primal + certain legumes (which I don't understand since they are all starch and fiber which I thought was irritating to the gut). She says you have to adhere to the diet 100% or else you're wasting your time basically. Now, I'd rather just do Paleo because I don't believe in eating dairy or legumes anyway, but how important do you think it is to never "cheat" when you are trying to heal intestinal damage?
I'm trying to convince my mom to get on board w/ this because I already am (w/ occasional slip-ups) and I really want to help her. She would probably be more open to doing it if the diet wasn't quite so strict and if she thought she would be healed in 1-2 years or something.

EDIT: I just read in the autoimmune thread that you say 100% compliance is necessary. but that's about GFCF diets. Are people really healing themselves and still eating other grains, and legumes, etc? Is the gluten and casein really the only thing that matters for autoimmune sufferers?

Really, you have to remove the antigen (which for some, may always remain an antigen) heal the gut/brain barriers and deal with the issue of TH1/TH2 dominance.
Until you know which immune system pathway is dominant, you might be stimulating the already overactive one further through foods and herbs- for example, tea, coffee, chocolate, grape compounds and OPC's all stimulate TH2 while polysaccharide containing foods and herbs stimulate TH1 (which lines up with SCD and GAPS- those people are likely TH1 dominant).
Incidentally, D3, fish oil, glutathione cream and boswellia balance both pathways.

[Paleo Man]

Paleo Man, I'm curious what you think is the appropriate diet to heal leaky gut? I've read Elaine Gottschall's book and the Specific Carbohydrate Diet is pretty much primal + certain legumes (which I don't understand since they are all starch and fiber which I thought was irritating to the gut). She says you have to adhere to the diet 100% or else you're wasting your time basically. Now, I'd rather just do Paleo because I don't believe in eating dairy or legumes anyway, but how important do you think it is to never "cheat" when you are trying to heal intestinal damage?
I'm trying to convince my mom to get on board w/ this because I already am (w/ occasional slip-ups) and I really want to help her. She would probably be more open to doing it if the diet wasn't quite so strict and if she thought she would be healed in 1-2 years or something.

EDIT: I just read in the autoimmune thread that you say 100% compliance is necessary. but that's about GFCF diets. Are people really healing themselves and still eating other grains, and legumes, etc? Is the gluten and casein really the only thing that matters for autoimmune sufferers?

Paul McNeil and others in a study at the Medical College of Georgia found tested wheat germ agglutinin (WGA) and bean lectin and others, and found that WGA and the legume lectin tested "potently" inhibited repair of the gut. I tried to post the link, but it is not working tonight. Fascinating experiment.

I'd tend to favor a Paleo type diet free of inflammatory foods and free of foods that tend to provoke allergies and especially intolerances. I had GI problems for years before adopting a Paleo type diet and my gut has felt great, perfect, for some years on a Paleo protocol now. Pretty much the Cordain protocol.

Probiotics seem to help some, including the excellent VSL#3 that has been the subject of a lot of controlled studies and is recommended by quite a few gastroenterologists and other knowledgeable physicians. (VSL3.com). Some recommend Lactobacillus reuteri. Omega 3 is always on the supplement list, and magnesium, and usually B-12, and of course D.

The main things I am aware of are avoiding more damage, and avoiding lectins such as WGA and legume lectins that inhibit healing, and letting things heal.

I'm not aware of rice causing any particular damage or inhibiting healing, though it has a high glycemic index. While a GF/CF diet has been the base diet for all successful autoimmune remissions that I know about, it is often not enough and other trigger foods may need to be limited. The foods in question seem to vary with the individual. Chris Reading, MD, in his book on diet and autoimmune, "Trace Your Genes", has schedules of foods that he has found should be tested for elimination with various autoimmune disorders. The MS Recovery Diet book has suggestions also. Essentially, though, everything tends to point toward a fairly pure Paleo diet. There is still a lot to learn in this area. You might want to read Roger MacDougall's incredible story for his recommendations:

http://www.direct-ms.org/rogermcdougall.html

[Katie82]

Thanks Paleo Man and hazyjane! I will try to convince my mom to do a true elimination diet, not just a GFCF diet and then start adding foods back in one at a time (except gluten and dairy) so she can truly see what effects her. I've read Roger MacDougall's story before and it was really incredible. One of my aunts died of complications from MS a few years ago and every woman in my family deals with other autoimmune issues so I personally am looking for the perfect diet for myself and my little girls so maybe I can prevent them from going down the same road.
The info out there on autoimmune disorders is so confusing and contradictory sometimes that it's hard to sort it all out so anything I can learn is really helpful!