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Thread: Men's Health: Testosterone, prostate cancer, therapies

  1. #1
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    Men's Health: Testosterone, prostate cancer, therapies

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    Since the six pack abs after 40 thread has veered into the weeds of discussion about testosterone "shooting up" by Mark, I decided to start a new thread on the topic. At 70 years old, this is a topic dear to me. Let's start with the last posting on that thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    So you are going back to SAD eating now since the "prophet" of the primal movement has started with testosterone injections in addition to the primal lifestyle? Mark has probably made up all the pros and cons and thought that he may get even better results if he add testosterone injections on top of primal diet and training, nothing wrong with that imo. Its a personal choice an a "gamble" that I am not willing to take myself, maybe in 10 years if needed LOL...
    Continuing,

    You also have to plug in the fact that Mark lives in SoCal. I did for a number of years. There is no place on earth where the superficial (looks) is more elevated to "important." A lot of shallow values. I'd say there's an excellent chance that his chest is waxed, too.

    Do I care? Not a whit. Ditto on the T. The bottom line is that he has made perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives better, and with humility. And unlike any number of health gurus, without constantly reminding readers of the opportunities to buy products.

    As we age, testosterone levels go down as we all know. That's true for women, too, that's why so many lose interest in sex after menopause. Lower T results in a whole slew of mostly unwanted effects. (Some are glad to be rid of that sex devil cracking the whip.) From loss of potency and muscle definition to metabolic effects. If a simple injection can stave off these unwanted effects of aging, why not? My brother, who has never exercised in his life "shoots up." When I visited last spring, I was amazed at the definition in his arms. Yes, jealous.

    High, or just youth and mid-life normal levels of T also stave off prostate cancer. My best friend has suffered from high PSA numbers and a horrible biopsy. In an informational hand holding thing, I've researched the bejesus out of the topic. Among many findings, one is that prostate cancer is virtually unknown in young men with normal T levels. Testosterone is protective.

    (A few other findings: The creator of the PSA test wrote a book about how it is misused. It has only a rough correlation to malignant cancer. All older men have some BHP, benign hypertrophy prostate, enlarging. All older men have some cancer in the prostate, but they usually don't result in mortality or the need for therapy. PSA tests after age 65 have little impact on overall mortality.)

    About two years ago, my PSA was creeping up. That's when I found out about and did my research on progesterone therapy for men. Here is a page of search results: http://www.bing.com/search?pc=COSP&p...herapy+for+men

    I started applying an oil, then found a higher dose, cheaper source: https://www.amazon.com/Source-Natura...esterone+cream

    I am enough of a scientist, so to speak, to know that proximity in time does not equal causation. Yet, after maybe six months of inconsistent applications, my PSA dropped 30%. I know that such a difference is well outside margin of error or lab errors.

    OK, I'm going to go a bit TMI on you. Avert your eyes if you need to. A couple of months ago I decided to up my cream application from once a day (If I remembered) to target at three. Each dose is just a big, unmeasured blob, about a teaspoon or two. I put it on one forearm and then rub both of them together. How do I say this? OK, the results: Conservatively, I've reversed at least 20 years of natural potency decline. Maybe more. I'm happy, "she's" happy.

    The last year of my life has been very unsettled, a complete uprooting of my life, a big move, and then a smaller move. I am now stable and am starting up a new medical relationship. Although I've had some labs done, PSA has not been included. I am having the Medicare wellness exam at the end of August and I will be asking for a PSA. Maybe I'll ask for a T test, too. When I had that two years ago I was at "low normal," normal for my age.

    Testosterone: It's what we all need.

  2. #2
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    I responded to the other thread before seeing your new thread. But, reading your post here, here's a BIG +1
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    I'm going to +1 and +1 this post. I'm a 47 year old male somewhere in between. I have a malfunctioning pituitary gland and have for most of my life. I never had a "normal" testosterone level even when younger. I have been on injections for years now and I can tell you that's it has presented me with the energy and ability to get in shape, stay in shape and keep my BF low as well as emotional benefits that I can't begin to count. There are risks but the health risks of chronically low T can be much worse. Like saturated fats the scientific community is coming around to the idea, through new and innovative studies, that T really isn't the monster, artery clogger and cancer causer that they once thought it was. Balance is the key and not supraphysiologic levels of T. Although my T replacement is being used to treat an organic malfunction I see nothing wrong with T replacement for men later in life. It has many benefits when used correctly and in conjunction with diet and exercise.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkjody View Post
    I'm going to +1 and +1 this post. I'm a 47 year old male somewhere in between. I have a malfunctioning pituitary gland and have for most of my life. I never had a "normal" testosterone level even when younger. I have been on injections for years now and I can tell you that's it has presented me with the energy and ability to get in shape, stay in shape and keep my BF low as well as emotional benefits that I can't begin to count. There are risks but the health risks of chronically low T can be much worse. Like saturated fats the scientific community is coming around to the idea, through new and innovative studies, that T really isn't the monster, artery clogger and cancer causer that they once thought it was. Balance is the key and not supraphysiologic levels of T. Although my T replacement is being used to treat an organic malfunction I see nothing wrong with T replacement for men later in life. It has many benefits when used correctly and in conjunction with diet and exercise.
    I think a lot of the bad reputation of T is because of the use and arguably overdosing in the body builder community. If a bit is good, more is better. I'll worry about my shriveled nuts later vs. winning contests. Overdosing can be apparent, I think, as the classic " 'roid rage." That's just a guess, no science that I no off. Normal, healthy young men may often respond to a situation aggressively, but generally falls far short in frequency and intensity. Again, anecdotal observations, no citations.

    The beauty of progesterone treatment is, I presume, you can't get to those artificial levels. And because your body is making it via natural pathways, I presume no side effects like Tiny Testicles.

    Kept at youthful normal levels I can't imagine any downsides other than better health and good "vigor."

    Anyone knows differently, please weigh in.

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    From what I've read in numerous spots before, the old ideology that Testosterone drops with age might not be as true as we thought, because it might actually be what we're doing to ourselves to cause the drop. So much in fact that our ancestors apparently had double or even up to triple the amount that we do today. There are plenty of 70 to 80 year olds running around with testosterone levels of what we'd consider to be an 18yr old's levels, so what gives?

    Testosterone is in direct competition with Cortisol so to speak, as one goes up the other goes down. If one has elevated cortisol levels (like most of the population does), Testosterone by default will go down. Testosterone can also rise and fall significantly on a daily basis given your activity and diet. Sleep being the number one factor due to every hour lost or gained there is something like a 15% rise or fall in it. So if you're going to have your Testosterone tested, don't do it after you've had a crappy sleep, or only like 4-5hrs. Test it after you've had a good 8-9hrs sleep and feel normal, that will give people a better idea where their true levels are at.

    I'll add a TMI in here as well. Zinc also blocks the conversion of Testosterone to Estrogen, and what many guys don't know is that when you ejaculate, you lose about 5mg of zinc each time which is a considerable quantity. If a guy persists on masturbating daily or multiple times a day, they will inevitably hurt their zinc levels which will in turn open the door for the conversion of Testosterone to Estrogen. Someone else in a different forum said it best, keep masturbating and turn from a raging bull into a passive flacid cow. As we know, low testosterone = lethargy, disinterest, low libido etc.. People have found solace and a complete obliteration of fat by simply practicing complete abstinence for months on end. It's actually quite interesting if you look it up. Women can also apparently sense it as well, as your Testosterone levels rise, the more interest they have in you. It's as if they sense the fertility, and guys have reported this very phenomena after even a month of abstinence. Zinc levels don't replenish quick either, according to my naturopath, it could take months or up to a year for zinc levels to return to normal.

    It also shouldn't be a surprise that if someone gets their Testosterone elsewhere, your body will either stop or inevitably slow down the production of it. So this is where people have to weigh their options to see if it's worth it in the end. Another thing that shouldn't be as a surprise is the fact we need cholesterol as it's the precursor to every hormone in the body, including Testosterone. You need cholesterol to manufacture it so why anyone would want to lower their cholesterol is beyond me. If you go to the doctor looking for meds to lower cholesterol, to me it's the same as "doc i want my testosterone lower, give me some pills please".

    Lately I've been reading a little bit more about the old school bodybuilder Vince Gironda. He apparently invented or popularized the "steak and eggs diet", and this guy must have had epic T levels because he was ripped beyond belief. So much that he couldn't win contests on the basis the judges thought he looked too ripped. He once said that eating 36 fertile eggs daily was the equivalent of doing a low dose steroid cycle. I wouldn't eat 36 eggs daily (I don't think he did either), but his eating style 5-6 days a week was: steak (or some sort of fatty beef), eggs, butter, and cream or half and half. In other words a saturated fat bomb. I would be very interested to see the T levels of someone who kept that eating style up for a month or 2 straight.

  6. #6
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    @ WCF: While there are undoubtedly any number of factors that can reduce T, the number one is age. Period. Plenty of perfectly healthy, active, sleeping well, zinc eating and meat eating well older men that have reduced T. Evolutionarily, it would make sense, too.

    Abstinence of any kind doesn't sound like a fun therapy, especially if a "Perhaps" kind of thing. And why have all that T if you can't make use of it?

    I've noticed you rely a lot on bodybuilders for your information. Referring to the internet, I've seen very few BB proponents who have a good science background. But I want to especially counter your observations about Vince Gironda, who ever he may be. In "Body by Science" by McGuff, he points out that without using steroids, bodies like that can only be attained by genetic outliers. Then they turn around and endorse products and regiments to the many people hoping to achieve a similar body type, but they never will.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheBayou View Post
    While there are undoubtedly any number of factors that can reduce T, the number one is age. Period. Plenty of perfectly healthy, active, sleeping well, zinc eating and meat eating well older men that have reduced T. Evolutionarily, it would make sense, too.
    A lot of declines are blamed on "aging", but is that the real answer? Many researchers believe we should have life expectancies of 120, a level few have even approached, let alone achieved. If cells are constantly dying and being replenished, as they have been since birth, what happens in aging that interferes with that structural renewal? All the answers, to date, are theoretical. I think WCF makes some really valid points, although I agree with you that bodybuilder experience isn't the source of answers either.

    Your observation of "Plenty of perfectly healthy, active, sleeping well, zinc eating and meat eating well older men that have reduced T" may not be true. Are they "perfectly healthy"? If so, why are they aging so young at 50, 60, 70, 80 or even 90, when we might be good for another 30-70 years?

    "Live Long ... Drop Dead" - Mark Sisson
    Last edited by John Caton; 07-26-2016 at 03:03 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Sounds like the famous "unknowns that we don't know about" line, John. To dream of "what might be" while we have "what is" is too unsure of a foundation to determine how to live, at least for me.

    I've never understood the desire to live a very long life except in the context of fear of death. I'm 70 and my perspective, if anything, has only become more entrenched. As my genetics will practically insure that I live into my 90's and even perhaps 100's, what I used to grin about I now sort of fear. A long decline despite best efforts on my own part to be healthy. The desire to drop dead rather suddenly while essentially healthy is probably universal, but very few ever achieve it. It's not something we can mandate.

    It's not just matters of physical health which the "we should live to 120" folks narrowly focus on. There are financial, social, and family issues. Depression is rampant in the elderly, especially among the poorer segment. I live with gratitude. I thank FDR for SS, LBJ for Medicare, and my parents every day of my life for, both intentionally and unintentionally, leaving me in a secure situation as I close out my last 20 years.

    The current fact is, we age, testosterone declines. The declination has started in very healthy men of age 30. Hard to say a better diet or lifestyle at that time would prevent declination. Occam's Razor, John.

    Off to the rec center.........

  9. #9
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    OTB thanks for the info about the cream - I'm 64 next week and beginning to suffer the aging! I have ordered some of the cream and hope that it will have some noticeable effects - body composition / skin / energy and staving off general effects of lower T. I have no great urge to reach my nineties - but I'd like a full and vigorous life for as long as I can manage it!

  10. #10
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    There are lots of ways to improve levels of testosterone without supplementing it; losing weight if too fat and gaining weight if too slim, training more if too inactive and training less if overtraining etc. A well proven method that also works is to get a new and much younger girlfriend, she should ideally be less than half your age and never older than 28 years...
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

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