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Thread: To Dairy, or not to Dairy, that is the question.. :) page 12

  1. #111
    doug's Avatar
    doug is offline Member
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    Does grass feeding kill bovine leukemia virus? If you refer to the source data, it appears that BLV is on the increase. And raw dairy is becoming fashionable and seems like an especially easy way of transmitting BLV from cow to human. Meat may have BLV, but I don't eat meat without cooking it thoroughly.

    Does bovine leukemia virus cause human leukemia or lymphoma after humans become infected with it? Like the virus has proved to cause cancer in cows? I don't know. Maybe in 20 years someone will do a retrospective study to find out. Certainly not the National dairy Council or the USDA.

    What I have now is the option to opt out of the dairy or raw dairy group in that retrospective study. I opt out for a lot of reasons, maybe twenty, only one of which is BLV. If someone opts in, that is his or her choice.
    Again if you are arguing against the conditions found in factory processing of food I am right there with you! Putting a whole bunch of genetically similar livestock with immuno-compromised systems from mass use of antibiotics and hormones, in disgusting conditions, give them a diet they are not evolutionarily adapted to, is just grounds for cancer/disease. This study does not in any way differentiate where the samples were taken from or what the conditions were in those places.

    We all have to eat. Starvation means a relatively quick death. Cordain has sought to determine which foodstuffs are ideal for humans based on evolution over hundreds of thousands of years. Dairy is not one of them, but all any of us is doing is approximating as best we can. But we do need to eat, and we need things that we can readily get and eat in real life, now. I understand and respect Sisson's equivocal inclusion of dairy in his Primal equation because I think a fairly limited number of people are willing to eschew dairy, and it is not as bad as other things that he rightfully denounces in his triage approach. I understand and respect Cordain's rejection of dairy based on its absence during critical times in human evolution, and based on his focus on the pathogenesis of autoimmune disease. And given the convenience and abundance, and inexpensive nature of dairy, I understand why some Primal enthusiasts continue to utilize it. One thing we all agree upon is that we need to eat something or starve.
    Does Cordain advocate that all meat be consumed at a temperature regulated by a thermometer like Grok must have done? After all BLV is found in meat, so is e-coli and other bacteria. Sorry I donít buy it. Veggies and fruit can carry pesticides, bacteria, nitrates, etc. Meat can be hosts to all kinds of nasty diseases and bacteria. Fish can be full of toxins, heavy metals, etc. Why is it dairy is singled out?

    The Masai are arguably the healthiest people in Africa. They consume a diet of about 60% butterfat and they are not getting cancer. The Swiss likewise. Even the French, who consume far more butter and cream than Americans, enjoy a comparatively lower cancer rate, obesity, heart disease, etc and they love to smoke!

  2. #112
    Paleo Man's Avatar
    Paleo Man is offline Senior Member
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    Responding to Doug and Imyers04. Part of the problem we face is trying to navigate through the realities of the modern world while holding on to important Primal and Paleo principles.

    I assume that during a lot of human evolution, meat was eaten raw. But I also assume that conditions in the wild were such that ruminants did not pass diseases back and forth to each other quite as freely as confined feedlot or small pasture cattle do. Paratuberculosis, for example, is transmitted from cow to cow when cow's explosive diarrhea, caused by the bacteria, contaminates the common feed, while they are in enclosured lots or pastures. Rather than living on the boundless open prairie.

    An example of what I am talking about is Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in deer and elk. This nasty mad-cow-disease like disorder was apparently originally caused decades ago by some human researchers in Colorado who confined deer in a pen with sick domestic sheep, and when the deer became sick also, the researchers turned them loose rather than euthanizing them. CWD has spread geographically from there and been transmitted by farmed game also. It is so insidious. Sick elk were kept on one pasture, then they were all killed and the pasture was cleaned and unused for five years. When elk were reintroduced to it after five years, they caught the disease and became sick also. That is how hardy the pathogen is. Temperatures of 1000 degrees F won't reliably kill the pathogen and it can take many years for the brain symptoms to develop after the exposure.

    There was a time when I would have considered deer and elk meat from the mountain west to be the healthiest meat available in North America. But there are now locations in Wyoming where random sampling of deer infected with CWD reveals an infection rate of 30%. So I simply don't eat deer or elk meat from anywhere with any incidence of CWD. Despite the assurances of the chambers of commerce and fish and game departments, whose funding depends on license fees and tourism, that CWD may not infect humans much.

    Fortunately, most meat does not contain CWD, and is only subject to pathogens that are killed by cooking. I've little doubt that many of the disease causing pathogens in ruminants these days are from human livestock handling practices. But the genie is now out of the bottle and can't be put back. So cooking makes sense.

    Avoiding meat that contains CWD is an example of how I've had to modify my Paleo preferences and practices to acknowledge modern realities. There are numerous reasons other than pathogens why I avoid dairy, but pathogens are in the mix.

    I doubt that even the most pristine Primal or Paleo lifestyle will protect us from the infectious diseases that I have been addressing lately in this thread, if we expose ourselves to the pathogens.

    Consider the Native Americans on the American frontier. Surely they were the ultimate hunter-gatherers, diets high in Omega 3, low in grains, etc. But they were wiped out, in many cases to the last man or woman, by infectious disease. If Paleo lifestyle would have protected anyone, it would have protected them. The best way to avoid infectious disease is to avoid exposure to the pathogens causing it.
    Last edited by Paleo Man; 07-13-2010 at 11:03 AM.

  3. #113
    Ernst's Avatar
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    Hey guys, I have something that might interest everyone here and may benefit the Paleo world dramatically. Now please don't call me an idiot but this just came to mind and I've never read the PB so I might not have come across it.

    If I was Grok and I killed an animal, for instance, a cow or dinosaur; and it was lactating, thus it must had milk? We would have happened to eat the whole carcass, and everyone does agree that Grok does not waste any bit of carcass, which would be including the udder. And remember, the cow that was hunted or dinosaur was lactating which means it has milk in the udder which meant that they probably consumed the milk too along with the animal. Doesn't this make sense?

    It makes evolutionary sense to me to consume milk if this most likely happened because then it means that Grok must have been consuming milk, incidentally for millions of years! I don't know how you can avoid milk, if you kill an animal that is lactating, then it has milk in its udder and I would not waste it if I was grok as I think I find it really tasty "myself" and many of you guys too, whom would also drink raw milk. Right? We know a lactating dead cow still has milk, but I don't know if you can stimulate the teat to extract milk, but it was definitely still in there and you can cut it and milk would squirt around and gush out.

    I don't think Grok would have thrown away any bit of the kill and that includes the udder as it incidentally, had this great tasting substance now called milk?

    For the lactose intolerance, I think you just have to build tolerance and also have a great great source of clean raw milk which I have found today. Not having drank milk in a week, I drank a lot of this raw milk and I feel really good and not even bloated.

    Anyone?
    Last edited by Ernst; 07-20-2010 at 02:16 AM. Reason: Grammar KING!!!

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cillakat View Post
    Many Americans favor high fat, high salt and high calorie foods like Big Macs or Ben and Jerry's ice cream or any number of candies but it's certainly flawed in the most obvious of ways to say that they're biologically appropriate foods and were part of an environment of evolutionary adaptation simply because we crave them.
    I think that is flawed reasoning. Just because some cravings might be more about food preference than nutritional requirements, doesn't mean that all are. For instance, I crave water when I'm thirsty- does this mean water is not a biologically appropriate substance to consume in response to that craving?

    Same goes for fat. Just because we loooooove it and crave it and will do much to get additional free fats in our diet doesnt mean it would have been available to us in most places in the world. There was simply an evolutionary advantage to *crave* it - especially in an environment where food had the potential to be scarce sometimes- or always.
    That is merely paleo-speculation. I see absolutely no reason to believe hunter gatherers didn't have large amounts of fat available to them, or that they wouldn't have eaten it when the oppertunity presented itself.

    When you consider that large amounts of carbohydrate or large amounts of protein have adverse affects on our bodies and couple that with the lack of evidence demonstrating similar effects from eating saturated fat -as well as the evidence showing it's positive effects- then it seems only reasonable to conclude that a diet rich in saturated fat is biologically appropriate.


    Sorry for bumping an old thread, just felt the need to reply to this for some reason.

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