Insulin…an Undeserved Bad Reputation page 2

[Grol]

I fell asleep listening to Lustig yesterday, but I was just over tired. I liked everything he had to say and will get to the rest of it when I get a chance.

[Stabby]

De novo lipogenesis happens more when people are highly insulin resistant. We're getting back to using "healthy adults" to speak about the obese. If de novo lipogenesis didn't happen, nobody would have elevated triglyercides. If someone wants to lose a much weight as possible as quickly as possible and become as healthy as they can be, they should restrict carbs for a few months. Not calories.

[JamesKrieger]

I really don't think he does much service to a society suffering from Metabolic Syndrome, Pre Diabetes, Diabetes, morbid obesity and childhood obesity.

Grol,

Perhaps you should read my bio before making such assertions. One quote from it:

He is the former research director for a corporate weight management program that treated over 400 people per year, with an average weight loss of 40 pounds in 3 months

This program is here, although I am no longer with them. You can see many of the success stories here, and these are the rule rather than the exception. You can see overall program stats here, which includes nearly all of our clients with metabolic syndrome going into remission.

If you think all of the above is not doing much service to people in society suffering from these ailments, then I'm curious what you consider service.

but he digs some probably oddball insulin stats from HEALTHY MEN in the tables to again attack low carb thinking

You apparently didn't see the study I cited that compared insulin resistant obese to lean men. And if you want more research on insulin resistant people, then I can certainly provide it. The results aren't much different.

What does he recommend people eat?

It depends upon someone's individual needs. I tend to favor a high protein, low to moderate carobhydrate approach but that is not universal and will depend upon many factors related to the individual.

[Grol]

Grol,
Perhaps you should read my bio before making such assertions. One quote from it:

Thanks for stopping by. I think I have read everything at both your new and old sites. I'm sorry about my reactionary (emotional?) response here. I would have been more respectful had I known you were reading. haha.

You certainly have forgotten more than I will probably ever learn, but I just hate being derailed in the midst of my weight loss project. Blinders seem healthy for me right now. Taubes and co have helped me enormously. And right or wrong, that is how I feel (derailed) reading much of your material. The apology is sincere though. Your response could have understandably been far more defensive. I am too obsessive over info in this field to actually put someone with your credentials on ignore. I'll keep reading, but I have to keep doing what is working wonderfully for me.

We don't seem far apart anyway.

[JamesKrieger]

Grol,

Apology accepted.

I want to clarify my position on Taubes. It is no doubt that he got people to take a look at the benefits of low-carb dieting, and that is a good thing. He also got people thinking about the quality of carbohydrate ingested, which is a good thing. He got people thinking about how refined carbohydrate may be a contributor to obesity, which is a good thing. And low-carb certainly has benefits. However, to me, the ends does not justify the means. What I mean by that is that Taubes's book is full of incomplete or incorrect information, which I have a problem with, even if it's helped people lose weight. For every person that has success with low-carb dieting, there is someone who is irrationally scared to death over every single gram of carbohydrate because of Taubes's book. One person on my site wrote, that for every person that has low-carb success, "there are probably hundreds of people who can’t tolerate low carb for the long term. These people agonize over falling off the wagon, think that every gram of carb is like ingesting shards of glass or rat poison and beat themselves up to the point of binging and doing more harm." And this is where I feel his book does a disservice. I think his book oversimplifies the problem of obesity, which means it also oversimplifies the solution.

I do understand that my posts on Taubes have been too confrontational and harsh, and as I continue my review of the book, I am going to make an effort to tone that down. But I will still need to challenge the information as Taubes presents it, because I strongly feel the book can be very misleading. This doesn't mean he is intentionally misleading people, but nevertheless a more complete presentation is needed.

James

[avocado]

I would suggest de novo lipogenisis rarely happens in humans. Think about it. If the human body was efficient at turning carbs to fat then any excess glucose trying to get crammed into already full glycogen stores would then be turned into fat and stored (or so the theory goes) and insulin resistance would be avoided. As we all know insulin resistance is rampant. The fat gets stored as your body tries to burn the ever present glucose. All the symptoms of MSX and TII would be avoided if de novo lipogenisis happened on a continious basis by keeping glucose out of the blood.

I think this is a good description of why some obese people are a lot healthier than others. Some are not insulin resistant. They eat too much ... they make fat ... their metabolism still runs well. They're just fat.

Other people might have insulin resistance even without obesity.

[Stabby]

The issue is visceral fat in chunkiness. The vast majority have a great amount of visceral fat (they have been eating the SAD, afterall). And the whole eating too much myth is dead. Leanness is homeostasis in the absence of leptin resistance. Basically, eat paleo, eat as much of the correct foods as possible, gain no weight. They can be starchy tubers too, doesn't matter. But when shit breaks (not from the carbs, except for free fructose possibly), that's when the tolerance is gone.

Visceral fat makes a person (most overweight people) insulin resistant in and of itself http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...80/5/E745#SEC2

Some obese people are healthier than other people, yeah. Because fat isn't the only indicator of health. But they're nearly all insulin resistant.

[Egoldstein]

The more recent studies on sarcopenia and insulin resistance seem to confirm this where sarcopenia was correlated with insulin resistence in non-obese individuals.

[Grol]

The more recent studies on sarcopenia and insulin resistance seem to confirm this where sarcopenia was correlated with insulin resistence in non-obese individuals.

I'd like to read a little more on this. I have a diabetic 85 year old uncle who is built like an NFL running back. Solid muscle. My 83 year old diabetic mom is withering away.

[Egoldstein]

Here is a PLoS reference: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0010805

but I seem to recall another study (or maybe they presented this at a conference) but can't seem to find the link. I am keenly interested in this as my grandfather had Type II diabetes despite being thin. I suspect I inherited a propensity to insulin resistance.