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Thread: No, I don't need more carbs. page 2

  1. #11
    Hedonist2's Avatar
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    I bumped carbs up to ~150 because people in MDA recommended it. Again, I had already tried getting going from ~50 up to ~75. That just increased my glucose. As for waiting for A1C1, I can't get that until late July.

    So, no, I'm not experimenting with more carbs. I am trying getting less fat, especially dairy. I remember now that I bumped up dairy some when nephrologist told me the only way to eat high oxalate foods (to avoid kidney stones) was to get calcium at the same time. He said Tums, which I won't do, but I decided to get it naturally from dairy. (I suppose now I will get replies saying that oxalates don't cause kidney stones. There is some scientific and lots of clinical evidence that they do, and so far as I know, no evidence that they don't.) I may need to sometimes take a bit of calcium with oxalate foods.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedonist2 View Post
    My glucose level was stable for about 7 years with Metformin - ~120. In the last few months, it has shot way up, >200, despite taking more Metformin.
    Thanks for sharing. What was your diet like during that time that BG shot up to >200? It sounds like you were maybe eating ~50-75g carbs at the time, yes? Were you trying to lose weight when you were eating ~50g carbs?
    Last edited by Paleophil; 06-17-2014 at 08:08 PM.

  3. #13
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    What was your diet like during that time that BG shot up to >200? It sounds like you were maybe eating ~50-75g carbs at the time, yes? Were you trying to lose weight when you were eating ~50g carbs?
    Thanks.
    Carbs varied, avg about 75.
    The 50 carbs was after the BG shot up, to lower it.
    I have been trying to lose weight the whole time I have been on primal and have lost a lot. Wasn't weighing at heaviest but have gone from size 46 baggy pants to 40 slim. Obviously a ways to go.
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  4. #14
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    > "My glucose level was stable for about 7 years with Metformin - ~120. In the last few months, it has shot way up, >200, despite taking more Metformin. Several nice people here in MDA have suggested I have become physiologically insulin resistant and should eat lots of carbs for several days.

    I had lots of fun eating 150+ grams of carbs for 3 days - potatoes, white rice, bananas, etc. The result was to push my glucose to 350+."

    > "I bumped carbs up to ~150 because people in MDA recommended it. Again, I had already tried getting going from ~50 up to ~75. That just increased my glucose."

    > "The 50 carbs was after the BG shot up, to lower it."
    It sounds like your experience was similar to mine, but I'm not sure, because I don't quite understand your timeline yet. Can you fill in the blanks and correct any misunderstandings in this timeline please?

    BG stable at ~120 for about 7 years with Metformin and eating __ grams of carbs per day.
    BG shot up in the last few months to >200 while eating an avg of __ grams of carbs per day, despite taking more Metformin
    Lowered carb intake to ~50 g/day with __ results
    Increased carbs to ~75 g/day with __ results
    Increased carbs to ~150 g/day with the result being BG of 350+

    Also, what was the BG measure--fasting, post-meal, random, or ___ and how many BG measurements were you doing?
    Last edited by Paleophil; 06-19-2014 at 05:19 AM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    It sounds like your experience was similar to mine, but I'm not sure, because I don't quite understand your timeline yet. Can you fill in the blanks and correct any misunderstandings in this timeline please?

    BG stable at ~120 for about 7 years with Metformin and eating __ grams of carbs per day.
    BG shot up in the last few months to >200 while eating an avg of __ grams of carbs per day, despite taking more Metformin
    Lowered carb intake to ~50 g/day with __ results
    Increased carbs to ~75 g/day with __ results
    Increased carbs to ~150 g/day with the result being BG of 350+

    Also, what was the BG measure--fasting, post-meal, random, or ___ and how many BG measurements were you doing?
    Thanks. BG seems to be coming down from less fat and dairy.

    >>BG stable at ~120 for about 7 years with Metformin and eating __ grams of carbs per day.

    All over the place. Doing "healthy" conventional nutrition and meds for 3 years.

    Sort of doing Primal for a couple years. ("I'm not giving up potatoes, rice or tortillas, dang it." Sometimes eating potatoes 3X/day.)

    Eating about 90% for a couple years. About 75 grams carb/day. Sometimes less, sometimes lots more.

    BG shot up while still eating about 75.

    Lowered carbs to ~50 with some decrease in BG. Increased to 75 with some increase in BG. (I should really keep a journal.)

    I normally eat a protein breakfast early and measure around noon. But sometimes a measure when I get up or at other times during the day. Usually measure once a day, but up to 4X.
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  6. #16
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    I don't normally recommend going to the doctors for diabetes (mine damned near killed me) but you might want them to test your insulin production. If that is becoming a bigger issue than insulin resistance you might have issues that have little or nothing to do with your metformin and might need to be put *on* insulin.

    For me - after years of doing everything the doctor said and getting worse and worse and needing more pills (metformin, janumet, and don't get me started on the unnecessary bloody statins doc made me take) and finally insulin (without checking my insulin production levels first - gained 30 lbs in less than a month behind that frakking joke), I finally took matters into my own hands, learned a little, learned a lot, found MDA, began truly understanding what I learned. and dumped my meds down the turlet.

    A 16 day experiment (that wasn't the goal to start, just how long it actually took) with no grains, sugars (was already off those per my doc), or legumes combined with 3 hrs or so walking per week (half hour a day for at least five days in seven) my BG numbers went from the mid 300's down to the mid 80's . . . and stayed there as long as I observed the diet and a reasonable amount of *move at a slow pace*.

    It is worth noting I did the same experiment a year later without the walking (I'd been injured and gone off the wagon as it were) and had less success with BG never dropping below 100.

    I have issues with Metformin in general anyway because of how it is designed to function, but I'm not a doctor or medical professional so I'll leave that speculation out. Otherwise the above are my own experiences and perhaps a counterpoint of reference. YMMV.

    I've not had anyone suggest adding carbs to stabilize or lower BG, so that's a new one on me altogether.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedonist2 View Post
    Thanks. BG seems to be coming down from less fat and dairy.

    >>BG stable at ~120 for about 7 years with Metformin and eating __ grams of carbs per day.

    All over the place. Doing "healthy" conventional nutrition and meds for 3 years.

    Sort of doing Primal for a couple years. ("I'm not giving up potatoes, rice or tortillas, dang it." Sometimes eating potatoes 3X/day.)

    Eating about 90% for a couple years. About 75 grams carb/day. Sometimes less, sometimes lots more.

    BG shot up while still eating about 75.

    Lowered carbs to ~50 with some decrease in BG. Increased to 75 with some increase in BG. (I should really keep a journal.)

    I normally eat a protein breakfast early and measure around noon. But sometimes a measure when I get up or at other times during the day. Usually measure once a day, but up to 4X.
    OK, then can you please clarify what sort of BG measures each of the figures you reported are (fasting, post-meal or random)? Here's your timeline again, as best I can determine given the additional info you provided, and with the question remaining of what type of measure each the "BG" figures was and what you're doing since you ended the 150+ carbs experiment:

    1. [Fasting/post-meal/random?] BG stable at ~120 for about 7 years with Metformin and eating an avg of ~75 grams of carbs (within a wide range) per day via various diets, including "healthy" conventional nutrition for 3 years and then Primal plus potatoes, rice and tortillas for 2 years.
    2. [Fasting/post-meal/random?] BG shot up in the last few months to >200 while still eating the same Primal-plus diet with an avg of 75 grams of carbs per day, and despite taking more Metformin
    3. Lowered carb intake to ~50 g/day with some decrease in [Fasting/post-meal/random/all?] BG.
    4. Increased carbs back up to ~75 g/day with with some increase in [Fasting/post-meal/random/all?] BG.
    5. Increased carbs to ~150+ g/day for 3 days (potatoes, white rice, bananas, etc.) with further increase in [Fasting/post-meal/random?] BG to 350+.
    6. Ended that experiment and lowered carbs again to ___ g/day, with ___ result to fasting/post-meal/random BG.

    It makes a big difference what type of BG test each figure represents. For example, a fasting BG of >200 is much worse than a post-meal BG of >200, (though neither are considered good, of course).

    Why did you increase the carbs back up to the ~75g/day and then further to 350+ if the ~50g/day was working for you to decrease BG?

    Thanks for the additional info. Sorry for all the questions. Your history seems similar in some ways to mine, so it seems like maybe I might be able to provide you with some useful info or your info might be useful information for me (selfish, I know ), and I'm seeking first to understand your info.

    I try to keep a health journal myself, and know it can be difficult to keep up with it. At this point I mainly note occasional unusual things and stuff that might be clues to something. I noted much more early on.
    Last edited by Paleophil; 06-19-2014 at 05:41 PM.

  8. #18
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    It makes a big difference what type of BG test each figure represents. For example, a fasting BG of >200 is much worse than a post-meal BG of >200, (though neither are considered good, of course).

    Why did you increase the carbs back up to the ~75g/day and then further to 350+ if the ~50g/day was working for you to decrease BG?

    Thanks for the additional info. Sorry for all the questions.
    Dropping to 50g/day made only a minor difference. Not sure why I went to 75. Maybe from someone's suggestion. Maybe just slacking off. Yes, I need to keep a journal.

    And yes, I probably need to check BG same way every day. I eat when I get hungry in the morning. Can be 5 am or 11 am.

    No problem. Thanks for taking an interest.
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  9. #19
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    @Brahnamin: Doc says wait for next a1c1 in a month. I'm going to try the lowered dairy/fat in the meantime. I was in the hospital about 6 weeks ago (v tach). They pumped me full of insulin, which didn't seem to do anything. BG around 350.

    I thought Metformin was one of the good meds.

    Yes, exercise makes a huge difference.
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  10. #20
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    Ventricular tachycardia and BG measures above 200 and even 350 and unresponsive to insulin are serious health problems. Do you have any idea what contributed to your initial rapid rise of BG >200 or the tachycardia? Your diet at the time of PB plus potatoes, white rice, bananas, etc. seems relatively reasonable. It's something of a puzzle why things should have turned dramatically worse. Does your physician have any ideas yet about what the problem(s) might be? Your unusual example seems like one we could learn something from.

    I'm not a physician, not prescribing, and don't know what is going to work for you--FWIW, If it were me, I would be checking both my fasting and post-meal BG and trying to keep the BG spikes below 160 (roughly the figure suggested by Chris Kresser, Stephan Guyenet, Paul Jaminet, Kurt Harris and others) or so to avoid organ damage (but I don't advocate going to the extremes that Dr. Bernstein recommends).

    Like you, the 3 day carb up with "safe" carbs didn't work for me when I developed high and rising FBG and post-meal BG (in my case, while eating a VLC diet), nor did gradual increase of carbs over time. FWIW, I found that prebiotics, especially resistant starch, seem to have done the most to bring my post-meal BG spikes and FBG down, though I wouldn't say my overall health and fitness is ideal, so I'm not pretending that it was a panacea. Other people have reported that probiotics also helped.
    Last edited by Paleophil; 06-20-2014 at 06:34 AM.

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