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Thread: Do you drink coffee? page 8

  1. #71
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    Coffee is one of those things that, similar to dairy, I believe that if you have an issue with it is indicative of an underlying health problem.

    Lactose intolerance, for example, is not an issue with lactase production but rather an issue with a disregulated gut. If you are "lactose intolerant," your digestive system is unhealthy. Lactose is broken down by gut critters, so lactase production is not important and a red herring of sorts for people out against dairy for some reason.

    Similar to this are outdoor allergies. This is a great article for everyone to read:

    Pollen is Not the Problem

    I have confirmed the effects of this article. I used to have terrible allergies and now I'm largely cured aside from mild pet allergies. They continue to improve. It's funny that pasteurized dairy is their #1 trigger. Why? Because if you have autoimmune conditions such as seasonal allergies, you probably have an unhealthy gut and therefore a lactose issue to some degree as well.

    So where does coffee come in? You're dealing with a very potent substance that requires a healthy gut to process. Cocoa is like this as well. Sure, you could have some kind of rare coffee allergy. Hell, it happens with shellfish and shellfish are one of the most nutritious foods on Earth. But most intolerances are our fault and not nature's fault.

    Milk isn't the problem, you're the problem.
    Coffee isn't the problem, you're the problem.
    Pollen isn't the problem, you're the problem.

    If you have a mouthful of pollen, I don't care who you are, it's going to make you cough a bit. Similarly, 9 cups of coffee a day is probably way too much, just like 9 lbs of meat a day would be too much. But a cup of coffee a day should be healthful for just about anyone on Earth outside of some anomaly.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekola View Post
    1. You are saying "who cares about caffeine", just to admit that you like the caffeine effects in coffee. Pulse, temperature (if that reallly happens- not to me) raise etc. are all the effects of stress stimulation. Based on blocking the adenosine receptor.

    2. The above effect is counteracted by our body with increasing the number of such receptors, so caffeine stimulative effects disappear with time, very quickly.
    For me, it's as soon as 3-4 days when I feel "normal" drinking it, but super-fatigued when I don't. The initial boost and rush is the first 2-3 days at most.
    Don't you think that body, unnaturally increasing the number of adenosine receptors, tries to fight and counteract caffeine? If so- is the caffeine effect really that healthful in the first place?

    3. Caffeine withdrawal, so down-regulating adenosine receptors, can take up to a couple of weeks. It's really unfair to judge how "great" caffeine is after one or two days without it.
    Considering 80% of American population addicted to it, it's quite hard to find a good example of someone not really addicted to assess real differences between consuming and not consuming the stuff. The available studies however clearly state that for habitual coffee drinkers, caffeine rush is really just fighting the withdrawal and not the actual improvement of body functions.

    If coffee perks you up, you need to STOP drinking it | Mail Online

    Personally, I'd even say that every single "positive" effect you can observe from caffeine fades away with time, as you get accustomed to the substance.

    4. Present just one scientific study, and not Ray Peat's imagination, to prove caffeine actually does anything to thyroid.
    FYI - that article is stupid. Coffee raises your body temperature and increases the metabolic rate. Processes increase. Coffee SHOULD perk you up, and it's the reason why you drink it. Anything that speeds up your metabolism should give you more energy by definition.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I have confirmed the effects of this article. I used to have terrible allergies and now I'm largely cured aside from mild pet allergies. They continue to improve. It's funny that pasteurized dairy is their #1 trigger. Why? Because if you have autoimmune conditions such as seasonal allergies, you probably have an unhealthy gut and therefore a lactose issue to some degree as well.

    So where does coffee come in? You're dealing with a very potent substance that requires a healthy gut to process. Cocoa is like this as well. Sure, you could have some kind of rare coffee allergy. Hell, it happens with shellfish and shellfish are one of the most nutritious foods on Earth. But most intolerances are our fault and not nature's fault.

    Milk isn't the problem, you're the problem.
    Coffee isn't the problem, you're the problem.
    Pollen isn't the problem, you're the problem.

    If you have a mouthful of pollen, I don't care who you are, it's going to make you cough a bit. Similarly, 9 cups of coffee a day is probably way too much, just like 9 lbs of meat a day would be too much. But a cup of coffee a day should be healthful for just about anyone on Earth outside of some anomaly.
    I normally agree with you about carbs:fat, calories, etc., but I just can't get behind this. Pollen allergies aren't really analogous to milk/coffee tolerance. Pollen is an inescapable component of all natural human environments (aside from some extreme locations); cow's milk and coffee are not. Do I agree that moderate quantities shouldn't be a problem for most? Absolutely, but there's disparity as to what constitutes a modest quantity.

    A coffee tree will produce about 2 pounds of coffee beans per year - if you brew a 12oz. cup daily using 17 grams of beans, 2 pounds will give you coffee for 53 days (possibly less when you consider that roasted beans lose 20% of their weight). Taking into account the amount of work required to harvest, wash, dry, roast, grind, and brew coffee, it seems highly unlikely that consuming 7 trees' worth of coffee beans annually was a ubiquitous behavior throughout human history. It would seem to make sense that some people are better adapted to drinking it than others.

    Note that I am not saying you shouldn't drink coffee, nor am I saying you shouldn't drink it every day - the point I'm making is that if you don't tolerate coffee well, it is definitely not a sign that you are in ill health. Coffee is awesome, and if you can drink it without problem, that's great! Different foods work for different people.
    Last edited by tarek; 04-24-2014 at 01:58 PM.

  3. #73
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    @ ChocoTaco369

    I don't think it matters how people "handle" caffeine; I personally can handle it very well.

    Regardless of what you say about it and what you compare it to, that's a STIMULANT and a DRUG, that crosses blood/brain barrier and has a direct effect on various receptors in brain. It affects everybody in the same way from the physiological perspective. Period. There is a ton of scientific literature about that.


    By no means can caffeine be compared to any micro/macro nutrient. It's a drug/stimulant.
    Is it positive to health- maybe, maybe not. Does it alter our thinking and emotions- hell yes! Is this effect positive- it depends. What differs is how one perceives the caffeine effect. So if someone doesn't feel comfortable ingesting caffeine, I think it's perfectly OK not to consume it. And, for God's sake, it doesn't mean someone has a problem with health just because he doesn't like caffeine's effects.

    I would rather look for a health problem in those who are addicted to continuous, round-the-clock consumption of caffeine and can't go without it for more than a couple of hours.

    For the article- the title is misleading. The key information there is that habitual caffeine consumption just brings you to normal and your performance is the same as of the ones who don't consume it at all. And there's a lot of science about this particular effect as well; caffeine increases thinking speed, but not its quality, LOL

    Side note- if caffeine's thermogenic and metabolic effects are so great, why don't you go ahead and recommend clenbuterol, amphetamine or even stronger stimulants?
    Last edited by mikekola; 04-24-2014 at 04:51 PM.

  4. #74
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    The so called "DAIRY ISSUE"
    I would dare say that the dairy most people consume is conventional not full fat and pasteurized. If the people who claim they have a problem with dairy have not tried organic GF RAW full fat dairy Then there lies the potential issue. Source the highest quality RAW GF ORGANIC full fat dairy and then slowly to introduce this into your diet. And this very healthy dairy is rich and tasty therefore one does not need to eat/drink a big portion at a time. This is retraining yourself and conditioning yourself. Be patient too it can take a few weeks again because this is new to your body. Go ahead don't be frightened it is DELICIOUS AND HEALTHY and no comparison at all to conventional dairy. The most exciting thing is we are coming into the very best optimal time of year to consume this- BRAND NEW YOUNG TENDER GREEN GRASS!!

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarek View Post
    I normally agree with you about carbs:fat, calories, etc., but I just can't get behind this. Pollen allergies aren't really analogous to milk/coffee tolerance. Pollen is an inescapable component of all natural human environments (aside from some extreme locations); cow's milk and coffee are not. Do I agree that moderate quantities shouldn't be a problem for most? Absolutely, but there's disparity as to what constitutes a modest quantity.
    I think you're missing my point. If you get a large mouthful of pollen, I expect you to cough. It's immediately overwhelming - you're going to have a respiratory reaction. The same thing will happen if you get a big puff of dirt, or God forbid some kind of spices in the kitchen, inhaled through your nose. If I get dust from milling out a roadway at work, or a big puff of chili powder up my nose in the kitchen, I'm going to cough and sneeze like no tomorrow.

    But then it'll clear up. I'm not allergic to chili powder and concrete dust.

    I'm talking about hay fever. Constant, chronic itchy, watery eyes and a runny nose. Constant sneezing and misery.

    Pollen allergies, lactose intolerance and food intolerances in general are almost always autoimmune conditions. In these cases, you're the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by tarek View Post
    A coffee tree will produce about 2 pounds of coffee beans per year - if you brew a 12oz. cup daily using 17 grams of beans, 2 pounds will give you coffee for 53 days (possibly less when you consider that roasted beans lose 20% of their weight). Taking into account the amount of work required to harvest, wash, dry, roast, grind, and brew coffee, it seems highly unlikely that consuming 7 trees' worth of coffee beans annually was a ubiquitous behavior throughout human history. It would seem to make sense that some people are better adapted to drinking it than others.
    You're not consuming 7 trees worth of coffee. You're consuming the water the coffee beans soak in. You're discarding the beans. Your entire point is a fallacy, and it would be like me boiling a 10 pound beef roast in the pot of water, drinking the broth, throwing the entire roast away and claiming I just consumed 10 pounds of beef.

    Quote Originally Posted by tarek View Post
    Note that I am not saying you shouldn't drink coffee, nor am I saying you shouldn't drink it every day - the point I'm making is that if you don't tolerate coffee well, it is definitely not a sign that you are in ill health. Coffee is awesome, and if you can drink it without problem, that's great! Different foods work for different people.
    I believe if you can't tolerate a simple cup or two of coffee over the course of a day, you probably have some type of metabolic or digestive issue. That's not normal. I doubt anyone can drink 9 cups of coffee in the morning and tolerate it well, but that's because everything on Earth has a threshold of toxicity including water, air and sunshine. Coffee should have a medicinal threshold for just about everyone, outside of a hypothetical very small group of people that always has to be taken into account.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekola View Post
    Regardless of what you say about it and what you compare it to, that's a STIMULANT and a DRUG, that crosses blood/brain barrier and has a direct effect on various receptors in brain. It affects everybody in the same way from the physiological perspective. Period. There is a ton of scientific literature about that.
    It is a known fact that some people tolerate alcohol better than others.

    It is also a known fact that simple fermentation in your gut produces about "one drink's worth" of alcohol a day.

    Thresholds may vary, but everyone can tolerate alcohol. If you couldn't, you'd be dead. This is probably why the "one drink a day" crowd tends to see medicinal benefits and the people that drink multiple drinks a day see diminishing returns.

    There is nothing wrong with caffeine. You're taking a group of already unhealthy people who overconsume caffeine and have a bad reaction, then applying it to everyone and saying caffeine is a "stimulant" and a "drug." Please, it's embarrassing.

    All food is a stimulant. It gives you energy and speeds up your metabolism. Also, explain to me how caffeine is a "drug."
    drug
    noun \ˈdrəg\

    : a substance that is used as a medicine

    : an illegal and often harmful substance (such as heroin, cocaine, LSD, or marijuana) that people take for pleasure

    Drug - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    Ah, wait, but:

    "'Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food." - Hippocrates

    So, by definition, either all food on Earth is a drug, or caffeine isn't a drug because it isn't illegal. Everything is harmful if you exceed the threshold of toxicity. Is sunlight a drug, too, because it is often a "harmful substance" if you get too much of it?

    Caffeine is a perfectly natural substance incidental to real food. It is not unique to coffee. Your argument is illogical and ridden with fallacious statements.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You're not consuming 7 trees worth of coffee. You're consuming the water the coffee beans soak in. You're discarding the beans. Your entire point is a fallacy, and it would be like me boiling a 10 pound beef roast in the pot of water, drinking the broth, throwing the entire roast away and claiming I just consumed 10 pounds of beef.
    That's not the point I was making at all - by "consuming", I effectively meant "using". It is highly unlikely that all humans throughout history would have had access to the quantity of coffee beans necessary to feed a daily addiction (i.e. 7 trees' worth annually). Some, maybe, but not all.

    Ultimately, my point is that while most people should be able to tolerate an occasional cup, one cup a day is by no means a moderate dose for everyone, given that in nature, a cup every single day would be unlikely for most.

    Does this mean I think one cup a day is a ridiculous amount of coffee that should be considered toxic? No way. Again, many people do fine with that amount and sometimes even more. But for some (such as myself), that amount is enough to produce moodiness and weird hunger/sleep issues, and it has nothing to do with underlying health problems.
    Last edited by tarek; 04-25-2014 at 11:41 AM.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post

    There is nothing wrong with caffeine. You're taking a group of already unhealthy people who overconsume caffeine and have a bad reaction, then applying it to everyone and saying caffeine is a "stimulant" and a "drug." Please, it's embarrassing.

    All food is a stimulant. It gives you energy and speeds up your metabolism. Also, explain to me how caffeine is a "drug."
    I'm not saying there's anything *wrong* with caffeine. Just saying it's not what you claimed it to be in the first place.
    If you can't see the difference between macro-nutrients and psychoactive substances, particularly CNS stimulants, well- what can I do.

    Caffeine is a perfectly natural substance incidental to real food. It is not unique to coffee. Your argument is illogical and ridden with fallacious statements.
    It's kind of ironic and funny to what extend you can bend the logic when it comes to justifying stimulants- considering how logical you usually are.
    Amphetamine, ephedrine, marijuana and tons of other substances are also natural and found in real food. Still- they are CNS stimulants, just like caffeine, just more powerful and less predictable. The fact something can be found in nature is, IMHO, not enough to justify consumption and claiming it "healthful" just because you feel "better" after *initial* consumption.

    Speaking of initial take-in; the first cup of coffee after a long caffeine-free period always feels great. It's what happens when you are accustomed to your dose that really matters.

    Side note- according to the dictionary definition you provided, it should be enough to de-legalize caffeine to call it a "drug". What if one day someone does it?

  9. #79
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    I just quit coffee last week. I've been struggling with mood swings, irritability, insomnia, depression, etc. I was drinking 4-6 cups a day on top of black and green tea. I have to say that the change has been tremendous. I have less joint pain, I'm sleeping better, and my moods are much more stable. I feel a bit slower but that's a good thing- my mind was constantly racing. I've also noticed that my skin is less dry and broken out. Of course these are very nonspecific things but I do think they are related somehow to my coffee intake. I still have a cup or two of green or black tea but I've switched to water mostly. In a week or two I'm going to cut out tea, too. I've always been very reactive to caffeine- I get wired and jittery even after a cup or two of coffee. So it's quite possible that I'm one of those exceptional cases that just can't handle it in larger quantities.
    Love, peace, and bacon grease.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarek View Post
    That's not the point I was making at all - by "consuming", I effectively meant "using". It is highly unlikely that all humans throughout history would have had access to the quantity of coffee beans necessary to feed a daily addiction (i.e. 7 trees' worth annually). Some, maybe, but not all.
    It's also highly unlikely that humans would consume fresh meat every day historically. Most traditional societies are low protein because it's so hard to kill animals and so easy to dig up roots, tubers and pick fruits.

    Historical does not equal optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by tarek View Post
    Ultimately, my point is that while most people should be able to tolerate an occasional cup, one cup a day is by no means a moderate dose for everyone, given that in nature, a cup every single day would be unlikely for most.
    Steak and eggs every day would not be possible in nature. Only in our modern, industrialized society. But it's great for us. You're drawing conclusions based on nothing but a gut feeling, and I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by tarek View Post
    Does this mean I think one cup a day is a ridiculous amount of coffee that should be considered toxic? No way. Again, many people do fine with that amount and sometimes even more. But for some (such as myself), that amount is enough to produce moodiness and weird hunger/sleep issues, and it has nothing to do with underlying health problems.
    I'm going to continue drinking it every day at work. I feel better mentally and physically. That alone is enough proof for me. If it is a natural product that makes me feel good, there's probably something to it.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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