The question is: Why do [I]some people do poorly[/I] on the VLC?
You do well on the VLC and had always done well. We know that plenty of such people are out there. The question is what makes people do poorly, and how their system is different from the systems that function perfectly on the VLC.
Now, if you have done poorly, then changed something, then started doing well, then yes, that would be a valid example.
They probably aren't eating enough nutrient-dense foods like liver. With a true ketogenic plan, there truly is a general lack of micronutrients if you're not careful!
[QUOTE=WeldingHank;1130401]Interesting thoughts. Something that has been on my mind as well. I was initially a HF/LC "champion so to speak among my friends etc. I lost lots of weight, got my type 2 diabetes under control (my own doctor says reversed) and overall improved my life. But when it came to my workouts (krav maga) I always felt something was lacking. Through some more carful reading, glycogen hit me. What are some of these people doing for activity? If you do heavilly glycotic exercise (crossfit,martial arts, HEAVY lifting) while trying to low-carb, your gonna have a bad time.
For myself, I don't do keto as often (kinda happens by accident now) and eat way more starch (sweet potatoes, potatoes, plantains) and my actions @ krav have gotten much more explosive and quick. I have come to think that keto is just the gateway to retrain a broken metabolism,
then slowly re-introduce carbohydrate depending on activity.
Everyone just needs to experiment.[/QUOTE]
Well said, I agree with the use of keto as a gateway. I was strict Paleo for 4 months and kept carbs under 70 gms per day, dropped 48 lbs and reached my goal weight. At this point I started to focus on getting body fat under 12% and introduced some starches (yams, white rice etc.) and increased workout intensity with great results. Currently under 10% body fat and getting great strength gains. Recently read the Perfect Health diet and I am employing their recommendations.
[quote]They probably aren't eating enough nutrient-dense foods like liver. With a true ketogenic plan, there truly is a general lack of micronutrients if you're not careful![/quote]
Nope, I ate liver religiously, from grass-fed beef and pork (I love liver, always did), ate wild salmon, coconut oil, raw soaked and dehydrated macadamia nuts and every shred of green my 30 g per day allowed, and drunk home-made set-to-solid rich bone broths from grass-fed beef bones and turkey... and no dice. Initially I lost ~ 4 lbs, but in 2 weeks regained it and became lethargic with hunger. And, yeah, in the end I was starting to have horrible psychological response when handling or seeing fruit, basically ready to snap at the lucky people who can eat fruit, weep for envy and I don't want to relate the thoughts I had seeing slender gazelles shopping for fruit and granola or eating 3 cups of grapes in front of me.... Don't think it's normal.
I think "Liver" is the key...but not the kind you eat--the kind that's sitting under your ribcage! Many metabolic problems begin and end with liver function. Many of the things the OP talked about in the first post are liver issues (Conversion of T3-T4, cholesterol, insulin sensitivity). In a person with a compromised liver (fattly liver disease), all of these metabolic functions are altered.
I have long surmised that people with liver dysfunction do very poorly on a VLC/LC platform. I think VLC/LC/Ketogenic are good to reduce the fat accumulation in the liver and begin to get liver function back, but adherence to the same low carb diet only exacerbates other conditions such as thyroid hormone and cholesterol conversion.
I have read that fatty liver disease is never truly cured, only mitigated. Once the liver begins to store fat inside itself, it takes hurculean efforts in diet to keep it from reverting to fat storage. Insulin sensitivity is a must in keeping a formerly fatty liver healthy.
Funny, that's what acupuncturist told me, that and kidneys. he gave me herbal concoction with a flowery description of how it addresses yiun and whatever and liver.
That fatty liver sounds like a diagnosis: hopeless. You gotta eat low cal/low fat diet, but you are hungry because your liver is fatty, so... Fat or miserable. Pick one.
[QUOTE=Leida;1130684]That fatty liver sounds like a diagnosis: hopeless. You gotta eat low cal/low fat diet, but you are hungry because your liver is fatty, so... Fat or miserable. Pick one.[/QUOTE]
I had fatty liver. My liver actually hurt when I'd lay on it and some liver labs (ALT?) were very elevated. After 6 months LC PB, liver labs all normal, no more pain. You could say I'm cured, but too much fructose or alcohol and I can feel it in my liver. My goal is to keep weight off and insulin sensitivity high via diet and exercise.
Following the line of thinking, a low blood glucose level on a very low carb diet would most likely be due to inadequate gluconeogenesis...[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you mean by this or why it matters. I don't think I've read a single anecdote of someone experiencing fasting or postprandial hypoglycemia on a ketogenic diet. Fasting blood sugar tends to be higher, actually. If gluconeogenesis is insufficient, I imagine it would be related to glycogen rather than blood sugar.
[QUOTE=otzi;1130660]I have long surmised that people with liver dysfunction do very poorly on a VLC/LC platform.[/QUOTE]I think you have a very valid point there, Otzi. I would add some others to the list as well.
1. Liver dysfunction
2. Thyroid dysfunction (can often be undiagnosed but VLC brings it to light)
3. People who are already very lean.
4. People doing starvation level calories yet blaming the physical symptoms on the low carbs.
This is just from what I have observed of posters over the years. Someone starts going on about how horrible their VLC experience was and then, later down the post, it turns out they had one of these physical ailments. Or guys like Derpy (who is 6'2" and 150) are obviously not going to do well on a fat burning metabolic plan because he has no fat left to burn.
And then there are the people who say they hate keto but were never really there. They were in the place Dr. Peter Attia of The Eating Academy calls "The Zone Of Misery" which is like perpetual carb flu. The transition to keto can be derailed by some combination of too many carbs, and/or too little fat, and/or too much protein.
So I don't say "Ur doing it rong" to everyone who has a bad experience with keto. It is really not right for some people at some stages in their quest for health.