[QUOTE=namelesswonder;1100885]Go read the wiki page for Satan. There is no direct reference to a Satan figure.[/QUOTE]
It's true. The figure in the tree was [I]a[/I] satan - an angel sent to test humanity's faith. Over time, it was personified into one entity, separate from and opposite Yahweh.
I don't care about wiki anything...who is the serpent in the garden if it is not satan? The translation is like, "The adversary" right? Sounds like satan to me...
Also the Torah as it exists now is the same bullshit as the christian bible. Priests and the ruling class edit that shit as they need to engineer culture to entrench and extend their power.
In the book of Enoch, there is an anti-god character who wars with God before Time- the victor gets to create the universe (or eat its potential and dwell in perpetual darkness)
[QUOTE=Mr.Perfidy;1100893]I don't care about wiki anything...who is the serpent in the garden if it is not satan? The translation is like, "The adversary" right? Sounds like satan to me...[/QUOTE]
I interpreted it to mean humanity's adversary, not God's.
In the same chapter or whatever it says that man made god in his image and loved him above all other creations...
[URL="http://www.amazon.com/The-Origin-Satan-Christians-Demonized/dp/0679731180/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361298650&sr=8-1&keywords=elaine+pagels+the+origin+of+satan"]Excellent book.[/URL] Shows the development of the concept of Satan. The literal meaning of the term "satan" would be something like "obstructionist"; I'll leave the political implications for you to infer.
[quote=Kata]It's true. The figure in the tree was a satan - an angel sent to test humanity's faith. Over time, it was personified into one entity, separate from and opposite Yahweh. [/quote]
That's a point Pagels makes, that angelic figures were often obstructing, adversarial, and of ambiguous intent.
There is a reading of Genesis that would interpret the story of Eden as symbolic of the development of human consciousness, with the Knowledge of Good and Evil being that which separates us from other animals. One can certainly argue that point, but if the curse of consciousness is what makes human beings human - our introspection, ability to think metaphorically, our ability to conceptualize time in spatial terms, and all the prodigious output of our blessed 2.5 mm thick neocortex - then the Serpent is the agent that brings about the origin of consciousness, and is therefore the catalyst for all that is great and horrible in humankind. The Serpent is responsible for slavery and holocaust and murder, but also music and literature and science.
[QUOTE=JoanieL;1100831]IMO, God and Satan are social constructs invented to keep the masses in line. If you do good, you did it - take your kudos. If you do bad, you did it - take responsibility.
Now Santa and the Easter Bunny - those are real.
Someday we'll understand why some little boy likes to cut the heads off kittens and grows up to cut the heads off women. If it's Satan, I'll admit I was wrong. But I'm betting on science.[/QUOTE]
Yes... of course.
And arguing beliefs is all running is circles... fun when you're a child and want to get dizzy and fall over, pretty pointless as an adult who needs to do other things like vacuum and go to the grocery store. :D
[QUOTE=Mr.Perfidy;1100840]Sure they are concept models or whatever, imaginary characters and shit, but like you said- so is God....and yet, there are billions of people whose behavior, personal and business networks, finances, hiring and firing, art-work, speech, child-rearing, diet- all are determined by this idea of this character. Why should satanism not be possible if christianity or judaism is possible? Unless you are going to argue that there are no real jews or christians anymore.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you as well... Satanism is possible and indeed exists as a belief system for a certain group. And for what it is worth I'd be more likely to get a guys number if he responded with "Satanism" when asked about god/religion during a speed dating que. And yes, I've decided that if I'm ever single again that will be a good way to sort them... look them in the eye and ask about religion right off the bat (note: I'm looking for the guys who are willing to say "none").
BUT... I don't think that Satanism exists as a large enough part of the populace to make any actual difference because most people who hold the same beliefs just don't participate in any church at all. They are atheists and aren't really interested in the organizational and structure aspects of a religion, without the actual religious part, even if their beliefs are exactly the same as those professed by the Satanists.
Or, if they are like me, they find it a bit ridiculous and juvenile to have chosen the name "Satanism" for their belief system, which immediately puts them in the eye of and at odds with mainstream culture. It seems a bit melo-dramatic, and even narcissistic in character for my tastes... besides the tendency I've seen for those speaking on behalf of Satanism to also lean heavily towards gothic dress.
I'm sure not every Satanist falls into that stale trope though. At least I hope not. Bleh.