Are antioxidants useless?

[QUOTE=Neckhammer;950577]Interesting little article I saw linked recently.... Antioxidants prevent health-promoting effects of physical exercise in humans. [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19433800/]Antioxidants prevent health-promoting e - PubMed Mobile[/url] "Exercise increased parameters of insulin sensitivity (GIR and plasma adiponectin) only in the absence of antioxidants in both previously untrained (P < 0.001) and pretrained (P < 0.001) individuals".:eek:

Then there is this [url=http://metamodern.com/2010/09/26/antioxidants-block-cell-repair/]Antioxidants block cell repair[/url] Seems while slowing damage antioxidant as supplements may actually also significantly impede autophagy also. Couple of things to think about and some mechanisms seem to be becoming clear as to why antioxidant supplementation doesn't seem to have the huge benefits as advertised.[/QUOTE]

That must have been the study I had seen before. Pretty interesting stuff!

[QUOTE=Omni;950683]Unless You can actually determine a deficiency of a particular substance, then supplementation may be detrimental to your health.
A whole food source of anything is usually going to be safer and healthier as it by default mean that you are eating a healthy diet, whereas a supplement suggests you can eat crap and still stay healthy by popping a pill.[/QUOTE]I agree. It's also very easy to screw things up when taking supplements by overdosing one one thing or getting the balance of two or more things out of whack. You are trying to correct one problem but end up creating another. That is just about impossible to do eating a good variety of real foods.

[QUOTE=Neckhammer;950577]Interesting little article I saw linked recently.... Antioxidants prevent health-promoting effects of physical exercise in humans. [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19433800/]Antioxidants prevent health-promoting e - PubMed Mobile[/url] "Exercise increased parameters of insulin sensitivity (GIR and plasma adiponectin) only in the absence of antioxidants in both previously untrained (P < 0.001) and pretrained (P < 0.001) individuals".:eek:

Then there is this [url=http://metamodern.com/2010/09/26/antioxidants-block-cell-repair/]Antioxidants block cell repair[/url] Seems while slowing damage antioxidant as supplements may actually also significantly impede autophagy also. Couple of things to think about and some mechanisms seem to be becoming clear as to why antioxidant supplementation doesn't seem to have the huge benefits as advertised.[/QUOTE]I re-posted this over to the fasting thread because the whole point of fasting is inducing autophagy but it's good to know that supplemental antioxidants could interfere with that process. Thanks, Neckhammer.

[QUOTE=Paleobird;950696]I re-posted this over to the fasting thread because the whole point of fasting is inducing autophagy but it's good to know that supplemental antioxidants could interfere with that process. Thanks, Neckhammer.[/QUOTE]
So, drinking tea, coffee, and yerba mate, all of which are good sources of antioxidants is not recommeneded? Alright then, I guess true water fasts is the only option now.

[QUOTE=Drumroll;950720]So, drinking tea, coffee, and yerba mate, all of which are good sources of antioxidants is not recommeneded? Alright then, I guess true water fasts is the only option now.[/QUOTE]Well here again we come back to the question of are we talking about all antioxidants including natural sources or just the supplemental pill form? I really don't know.

A lot of people consider drinking tea to be "supplementing" with antioxidants. Personally, since it's all natural, I would say that's not the case. But I've read the phrase "supplimenting by drinking tea" quite often when doing any reading about tea.

If you consider drinking tea to be supplementing, then you definitely have to consider coffee and yerba mate and any other high antioxidant beverages the same. Which makes bulletproof fasting also kind of pointless.

Hard to tell, but it's sounding like you need to be strict about fasting with water only to recive the most benefits of the fast.

I took a look through the links above by Neckhammer and all those studies were done with synthetic high dose antioxidants. I don't really consider drinking tea to be supplementing any more than eating liver would be. They are both just part of a healthy diet.

But when the subject of fasting comes up the first thing everyone cautions is, "be sure to take your vitamins". Well, maybe not.

[QUOTE=Drumroll;950626]You say supplementation, but those articles seem to be implying that antioxidants from ANY sources would have these effects, whole food sources or not.

So, to play the devil's advocate, what makes whole foods any better than supplementation, if antioxidants from both sources are, according to the above, not really beneficial?[/QUOTE]

Well the first one is a study that states this ..."We evaluated the effects of a combination of vitamin C (1000 mg/day) and vitamin E (400 IU/day)" and this "Consistent with the concept of mitohormesis, exercise-induced oxidative stress ameliorates insulin resistance and causes an adaptive response promoting endogenous antioxidant defense capacity. [B]Supplementation[/B] with antioxidants may preclude these health-promoting effects of exercise in humans." So definitely supplementation in that one.

The second is more of an article on the matter. But, the studies discussed include this ...."In 47 low-bias trials with 180 938 participants, the antioxidant [B]supplements[/B] significantly increased mortality….beta carotene…, vitamin A…, and vitamin E…, singly or combined, significantly increased mortality. Vitamin C and selenium had no significant effect on mortality.” And then there is this "[B]Antioxidant drugs i[/B]nhibit basal and induced autophagy" from the other study talked about.

Seems neither of them were related to antioxidants in a whole foods diet.

I do agree that it looks like water is the way to go during a fast if you can....and like Paleobird said, the whole "be sure to take your vitamins"....at least during the fast might not be in your best interest. The second article does point out that research on autophagy is basically BOOMING right now, and there could be many new discoveries in a short time. Fun eh?

So, the only question is, what effect does tea, coffee, and yerba mate have on a fast. It's looking more like water fasts only though, given the research.