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fascinating thread. i feel a million times better VLC but have been getting bum steers lately about thyroid scares and needing carbs to make serotonin. i also feel quite sluggish on too much protein. i have wondered how come we are all even still here if we really need all those carbs as for most of our history, we would likely have been in ketosis as there arent really many wild freely available starchy carbs out there. my issue with getting to ketosis is getting enough palatable fat. i find nuts trigger eating disorder behaviour in me. i am still squicked out by meat fat unless it is crispy or rendered which leaves dairy or coconut. so tips on getting the fat content up without nuts would be good.
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[QUOTE=Daydreamer;942963]I have a question, I've been trying to get in ketosis for the first time in my life (was following Mark's macros with around 70 to 150 fats, most days around 100).
I don't have any ketostix for the moment, but I remarked that... scuse for that, my urine smells quite strong.
Is it a sign of it ?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sbhikes;943034]The first time I did this I went through a period of time where my urine smelled quite strong. Like fingernail polish remover. My breath was pretty bad, too and there was a bad taste in my mouth. I would also smell like acetone when I took a shower. This happens to me after a super long, strenuous hike even way back when I was on the SAD, too. Which is further confirmation of what I have read recently that metabolic flexibility is both a result of and a sign of physical fitness. Even on the SAD I could switch to fat burning, but it took a hell of a lot of exercise to do it.
This time around I didn't go through a stage with smelly acetone urine and bad breath or bad taste in my mouth.
I'm like opposite-lady. Give me carbs and I want to lay down and sleep. Take them away and I am bursting with energy.
[/QUOTE]
As best that I understand.....the "nailpolish" or acetone smell is the odour of ketone bodies, but these are unused excreted ketones. But the level of excreted ketones doesnt have a direct relationship with your bodies utilization of ketone bodies.
So we are left to assume, if we are on a ketogenic level diet with good energy levels which are consistent rather than cyclic glucose type energy, and have the other positive traits, then we are utilizing ketones effectively.
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Thank you for your answers.
I do feel quite "at peace" emotionally speaking and it's very pleasant to feel that way.
I'm never hungry, which is quite dangerous for me since I need to gain rather to lose weight.
If I listen to my hunger, I would eat around 1000 kcal. Which is clearly MUCH TOO LOW for me haha.
I need to force myself to eat 2000 kcal whereas when I eat more carbs (say 100g) I can get to 3500 kcal a day without much effort and with hunger.
I will have to monitor it, I don't want to loose too much, just maximize muscle gains and get a little bit leaner in the process, a kind of body recomp. But it feels so much better...
What is the theory behind CYCLIC ketogenic diet ? With a carb refeed...etc
How come it's possible to get back to ketosis rightaway ?
Oh also, is that "strange" metallic aftertaste constantly present in my mouth related to this ?
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[QUOTE=Drumroll;943114]Ironic that something that is supposed to be our body's preferred energy source seems to do nothing but make a good many of us sleepy, eh?[/QUOTE](Not @ you personally, Drumroll) But I hate it when the term "preferred" is used in this context. It makes it seem like a value judgement. The body can use either fat or glucose. I spent several hours yesterday evening reading Dr. Ron Rosedale's book. (That guy deserves some serious credit because he has been advocating against the whole HC/LF paradigm for decades before anyone had heard of "paleo".) Anyway he describes it as metabolic inertia. Your system gets used to processing carbs given a steady diet of carbs and it has to completely re-think how to function if you switch to HF/LC.
In a well functioning body, carbs are used for the fast burst energy needed to run down dinner or keep from being dinner. Fat is better used for longer duration lower intensity labors such as the long trail hikes that SB and I do. Given a supply of both fuels the body will burn the carbs first then get around to the fat but that doesn't make it the "preferred " alternative.
[QUOTE=seaweed;943121]fascinating thread. i feel a million times better VLC but have been getting bum steers lately about thyroid scares and needing carbs to make serotonin. i also feel quite sluggish on too much protein. i have wondered how come we are all even still here if we really need all those carbs as for most of our history, we would likely have been in ketosis as there arent really many wild freely available starchy carbs out there. my issue with getting to ketosis is getting enough palatable fat. i find nuts trigger eating disorder behaviour in me. i am still squicked out by meat fat unless it is crispy or rendered which leaves dairy or coconut. so tips on getting the fat content up without nuts would be good.[/QUOTE]Yep. Did you see the comments upthread from two people with thyroid troubles? Serotonin? Really? I feel like I sleep so much more easily and deeply when in keto.
[QUOTE=Picaro;943123]As best that I understand.....the "nailpolish" or acetone smell is the odour of ketone bodies, but these are unused excreted ketones. But the level of excreted ketones doesnt have a direct relationship with your bodies utilization of ketone bodies.
So we are left to assume, if we are on a ketogenic level diet with good energy levels which are consistent rather than cyclic glucose type energy, and have the other positive traits, then we are utilizing ketones effectively.[/QUOTE]Yes and the quantity of unused ketones decreases as your body becomes more adept at burning them so the keto breath phase does go away.
[QUOTE=Daydreamer;943125]Thank you for your answers.
I do feel quite "at peace" emotionally speaking and it's very pleasant to feel that way.
I'm never hungry, which is quite dangerous for me since I need to gain rather to lose weight.
If I listen to my hunger, I would eat around 1000 kcal. Which is clearly MUCH TOO LOW for me haha.
I need to force myself to eat 2000 kcal whereas when I eat more carbs (say 100g) I can get to 3500 kcal a day without much effort and with hunger.
I will have to monitor it, I don't want to loose too much, just maximize muscle gains and get a little bit leaner in the process, a kind of body recomp. But it feels so much better...
What is the theory behind CYCLIC ketogenic diet ? With a carb refeed...etc
How come it's possible to get back to ketosis rightaway ?
Oh also, is that "strange" metallic aftertaste constantly present in my mouth related to this ?[/QUOTE]This is the "keto breath" people talk about and yes, for someone like you, you do need to be careful to make yourself eat enough.
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By the way, Paleobird, I had always assumed that a ketogenic diet for seizure control would be an ongoing thing. But in a podcast maybe a month ago, Robb Wolf made the comment that after a year or two the epilepsy is corrected. It was a bit of an aside comment, but it was the first time I'd heard of this.
Do you know any more about it?
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[QUOTE=Picaro;943171]By the way, Paleobird, I had always assumed that a ketogenic diet for seizure control would be an ongoing thing. But in a podcast maybe a month ago, Robb Wolf made the comment that after a year or two the epilepsy is corrected. It was a bit of an aside comment, but it was the first time I'd heard of this.
Do you know any more about it?[/QUOTE]It is often the case in pediatric epilepsy that the child is completely cured in a couple of years and goes on to live a full seizure free un-medicated life. This may have to do with the fact that their brains are still growing so rapidly and are much more plastic than adults' brains. I don't know of any long term study with adults that are big enough to show conclusive cure but I have read anecdotal accounts of it. Most of the study funding and effort was directed toward children for many years but this is starting to change. It will take a while for conclusive long term results.
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I think all those thyroid and serotonin and insulin restance scares are truly just misinterpretations of reality. Anyway, if you try low carb and truly adapt--not just get stuck in that zone of misery--and feel really good, then who cares what your serotonin, thyroid and pancreas are doing. You can't feel this healthy and happy and also be sick. And the contrary is also true that you can't be be healthy on carb levels that don't leave you feeling healthy.
I am reading Phil Maffetone's Big Book of health and Fitness and he's got a lot to say about all this heavy weight lifting that's pushed around here. It is good to read something on fitness that actually jives with my personal experience and observations. So-called chronic cardio is another one of those half truths leading people astray. Basically we should all be walking slowly, hiking and even jogging and any heavy weight lifting should be natural, not isolated movement for hypotrophy and building big puffy muscles. All that does is interfere with fat burning and give you metabolic disorders. That totally explains to me why certain folks preach the potato so much. Through their stressful training anaerobically to fatigue they're triggering similar metabolic reactions I got just being a fatso with insulin resistance.
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Just thought I'd share a couple of upcoming recipes on my high fat low carb menu :D
Baked Salmon with Macadamia Pesto
[url=http://www.noobcook.com/macadamia-pesto/]Macadamia Pesto Recipe | Noob Cook Recipes[/url]
Steak with Sauce Bearnaise
[url=http://kitchencrush.com/2010/03/05/steak-with-sauce-bearnaise/]Steak with Sauce Béarnaise | [KITCHEN CRUSH][/url]
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PB,
Probably a silly question, but what does MOAR fat mean? Is it an acronym for something?
Thanks,
Gwynn
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Whew! I just read this entire thread including a number of the linked articles. Lots of interesting and useful information; thanks Paleobird and all the other contributors.
My initial weight loss results were great but after dropping 12-15 lbs and 2 pants sizes, I hit a plateau that just hasn't budged in almost two months. I was considering shifting to higher fat and this gives me more of a framework for experimentation. Yes, I have other health issues I am addressing but as they are also related to metabolism and energy production, it seems like losing weight and feeling better are the two readily available indicators I have of improved health.
I am 55, 5'4" and currently weigh 164 lbs down from 185 a year ago. Not sure what my ideal weight is but about 5 years ago I got down to 135 and people were asking if I'd been sick. I looked rather drawn and unhealthy below 140 - my natural shape is very much an hourglass but I would like to add some muscle too.
I am going to try to do the calculations on how much fat/protein/carbs but I don't mind if anyone wants to chime in with more directions as I am not exactly a numbers person. Thanks!
