[QUOTE=sjmc;940608]Well yeah I'd agree -- but maybe 30g of carbs wasn't sufficiently low to put them all in ketosis. I mean n=1, right? ; p
As I understand it, the general advice for getting into ketosis is <20.[/QUOTE]
Wow, is 20g really what you need to shoot for? Seems like you almost couldn't have any plant matter at all. Even eggs are relatively high-carb when 20g is your limit.
In all seriousness, though, I think the danger with a ketogenic diet is in ignoring nutrition. You won't get proper nutrients if you are just eating bacon and steak. I think one must consume large quantities of seafood, offal, non-starchy vegetables/seaweed, bone broth, coconut, mushrooms, etc... to get your daily requirements.
I was planning some menus and started using FitDay to track my RDAs, it has a good calculator even on the free version. I try to shoot for at least 100% on most nutrients.
[QUOTE=Neckhammer;940003]Great thread! I'm trying to think which article I posted that may have held your interest.
Then there is [URL="http://www.ketotic.org/"]The Ketogenic Diet for Health[/URL] a great site that's devoted to the study of ketosis and science without any real bias. I've "known" the author from previous posts and she is very thorough in science and eliminates bias to the extent any human can IMO.[/QUOTE]
Most of this sort of stuff is over my head and I have to wait for someone else to interpret it for me, so this may not even be talking about the same thing, I dunno :confused: Does this have any relevance from that link?
[h=3]We have seen the claim that any protein you eat in excess of your immediate needs will be turned into glucose by spontaneous gluconeogenesis [URL="http://www.ketotic.org/#¹"]¹[/URL]. ([I]Gluconeogenesis (GNG) is the process by which glucose is made out of protein in the liver and kidneys.) Some people think that because protein[I]can be turned into glucose, it [I]will, once other needs are taken care of, and that therefore keto dieters should be careful not to eat too much protein.While we believe there are valid reasons for limiting protein intake, experimental evidence does not support this one. In our opinion, it makes sense physiologically for GNG to be a demand-driven rather than supply-driven process, because of the need to keep blood glucose within tight bounds.
[LIST][*]Gluconeogenesis is a slow process and the rate doesn't change much even under a wide range of conditions.[*]The hypothesis that the rate of gluconeogenesis is primarily regulated by the amount of available material, e.g. amino acids, has not been supported by experiment. Having insufficient material available for gluconeogenesis will obviously limit the rate, but in the experiments we reviewed, having excess material did not increase the rate.[*]We haven't found any solid evidence to support the idea that excess protein is turned into glucose.[*]More experiments are needed to confirm that this still holds true in keto dieters.[/LIST]
And the summary:
[QUOTE][h=3]Summary[/h][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.[/FONT][/COLOR]
I ran across an interesting formula for figuring your ratios from the work of Dr Jan Kwasniewski author of The Optimal Diet.
First you figure up your IDEAL weight in KILOS. This is not necessarily the weight you are aiming for but it it your Ultimate HSIS (Hot Stuff In Swimwear) weight.
HSIS weight in kilos plus/minus 10% = range for protein grams/day
HSIS weight in kilos divided by 2 = upper end for carb grams/day
The rest of your diet is fat. HSIS weight in kilos x anywhere from 2 to 3.5 depending on your weight goals (lower to lose, higher to gain)
Ugh at my size this is only about 1100 calories a day :(.
I think I'm actually going to have to have a few days where I actually work out exactly what I eat and get the macros right so I have a better idea of what I'm doing, rather than just winging it. I am pretty certain I eat more than that... (although I guess I can start with the fat a little higher and see what happens?? If I'm cutting down too much I'll get the urge to binge, and I want to avoid entering that cycle if I can).
It's the sugar grams that count. Look at all the vegetables you can eat on a low carb diet:
[url=http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/whattoeat/a/whatveg.htm]Low-Carb Vegetables: List of Vegetables to Eat When Cutting Carbs[/url]
I ate lots of vegetables yesterday and my carbs were super low and I was stuffed to the gills.
Go read Paleobird's thread and look at the pictures of her super healthy meals. I guarantee her meals are light-years ahead of most folks and absolutely better than anybody doing the fruit smoothies, chicken and broccoli diet.
I hope this thread doesn't turn into yet another tribal pissing match over bragging rights and categorical, one-size-fits-all "solutions". I believe many if not most of us are experienced enough to have gotten over the first heady rush of dietary evangelism, developed a body of personal experience regarding our own patterns (and possibly ruts), and are simply looking for individualized ways to unlock the next step to reaching our goals and attaining better health.
A 6-week study in which people eating slightly more carbs lose weight slightly faster than their keto counterparts doesn't necessarily tell us much. All this time I've pretty much been an "NLC" posterboy, eating HF while keeping out of frank ketosis...part of the ~75-125 bulk carbs/day crowd, fell naturally into IF, tracked but didn't consciously limit calories (just went by hunger).
It worked like gangbusters for many 6-week intervals--about ten of them--until at some point early this summer, 115lbs down, everything just stopped, scale and tape measure alike. I've still got plenty of very obvious BF to lose; I'm nothing like Mark or any of the ripped bodybuilders in here.
I'd like to see a long-term study on [I]stalled[/I] people, but I don't think it exists.
I already tried relaxing the carb restriction (via moderately increased rice, tubers, and fruit) but that has merely increased appetite and gained me back a couple of lbs (nothing major, but disappointing all the same). After reading thru the thread and listening to the Phinney/Moore podcast (thanks to Lewis for posting that link!), I think I'm ready to try a ketogenic regimen for a while. I'm entirely agnostic about it--if it works, great; if not, on to something else.
[QUOTE=cantare;940711]I hope this thread doesn't turn into yet another tribal pissing match over bragging rights and categorical, one-size-fits-all "solutions".[/QUOTE]
Heh. Good luck with that one.
So, about nutritional Ketosis,
A little bit of a background: In the early spring of last year I got to "shopping" on the net for a diet. I was 32 yo and about 40 lbs. overweight, which on my small-ish frame looked almost obese.
Within a couple of days I started on Atkins and I suppose I became keto-adapted as I ate no more than 50 grams of carbs daily. Slowly, but surely with some exercise in little over a year with few stumbles and setbacks I lost about 35 lbs and almost reached my ideal weight. Then I found this site and decided to further clean up my diet (I wasn't too bad with artificial sweeteners but still had to cut them all out), ramp up my workouts (a lot) and increase carbs some by adding some fruit and a few starches.
I haven't done the keto-stix, but I'd bet I spent most of that year in a state of nutritional Ketosis.
For me Ketosis was a wonderful; thing, with one draw back.
First the positive:
- eating wonderful, tasty foods
- sleeping good and waking up rested and energized
- losing weight, obviously
- clarity of thought and nice feeling of calmness and piece
- no colds, ailments or any health problems whatsoever
- no nasty BO, and I'm probably forgetting some other benefits
The only con for me is that my hair was (and still is a little) shedding like crazy. Had my thyroid tested and it's all normal.
I suppose I'd like to go back to VLC in the winter, as there won't be much fresh fruit available, but I'm kind of on the fence.
So, any of you VLC peeps have had this problem?
Thank you for starting this thread, Paleobird! I have been stalled for about 3 months and was getting ready to throw in the towel and go back to counting calories. But over the weekend I did some more reading/listening to podcasts, and realized that I probably haven't been consuming enough fat and probably too much protein.
I'm only three days in to my "experiment", but I definitely notice a HUGE difference in satiety. Before, I was eating about 3-400 calories of protein-rich breakfast and feeling hungry before 11am. Now, I'm eating a 1/3 Cup of Coconut Cream (Trader Joe's) for breakfast and this holds me until at least 12 or 1pm! Then I have my typical salad+meat for lunch and veggies+meat for dinner and I'm good to go! My carbs have remained in the 75-100g per day range but I've traded some protein for some fat, and so far, I feel a lot better.
Obviously still very early and n=1, yada yada, but this is the most encouraged I have felt in ages!
[QUOTE=sbhikes;940545]Wow, I feel fantastic. I really did turn the corner. It took about two weeks. It's almost noon and I haven't had my breakfast yet. Just coffee with cream and some bone broth. I feel energetic, laser-focused, strong as an ox and I'm thinking I might go running and have my breakfast after that.
Seriously why on earth did I ever listen to all that "eat more potatoes" nonsense?? It totally took away all the amazing stuff I got when I first went down this whole paleo path. And like a frog in a pot of boiling water, I didn't even notice it happening.
My only complaint is that I wish I could find a way to be more carb-agnostic and keep this great super-low-carb feeling because a) it's so easy to fall out of this and b) so hard to get back.[/QUOTE]
+1 and X1000 to all of this...