[QUOTE=heatseeker;978409]Nope. Read the thread I started the other day ([url]http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread67334.html[/url]). I've gone months eating 100% clean with no effect, and I've been Primal a long time so I have a wide base of experimentation with different diet tweaks and workout styles. I have a cheat day because I found after lots and lots of trial and error that a cheat day a week has no effect on me. And I'm exercising a lot right now because I've found it's the only thing that budges my fat-loss stall (and because I really do like it).
I did some research and it sounds like what I'm talking about is a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet. I've actually had some meager success with carb cycling in the past. Has anyone else done the CKD? 6 days of VLC, one day of carb-up?[/QUOTE]
Hey Heatseeker! This is what I currently do. I am like you and have to have my wine at least once every 8 to 10 days or I just can't stick. I looove sushi and also the thought of going a long time without it makes me sad. So I adopted a modified CKD. When I go VLC for 6 days and then have my sushi and wine as my end of week cheat. I eat as much sushi and rice to my heart's content and by Sunday I am normally back in Ketosis. So far so good. I am still losing continuously and now wear a size 4 top which when I started was more a size 8. Anywho, for me personally, it is definitely doable.
As long as you were in ketosis for an extended period, carbing up on a meal or even day will only kick you out for 1-2 days. This is my n=1 (caveat)
[quote]When I go VLC for 6 days and then have my sushi and wine as my end of week cheat. I eat as much sushi and rice to my heart's content and by Sunday I am normally back in Ketosis.[/quote]
Awesome. Obviously my mileage may vary, but it's good to know that some people have success with this. And yeah, my cheat day foods are actually not insane junk food; usually it's sushi, tacos (corn tortillas), full-fat gelato, some wine or beer. I'm lucky in that I wasn't raised on processed food and really don't like it. But for sanity's sake and for workout performance's sake, I really need a carby day once a week.
Okay, I stuck for about 30 days, but I carbed up this weekend. The low level fatigue & slightly sick feeling never went away on high fat low carb, and the food restrictions in addition to the low volume of food are not easy to handle. It felt like eating 'substances' all the time, rather than food (in other words, butter, coconut oil, cocnut milk). It was very easy to overeat because and my weight loss quickly stalls after the water weight dropped. It did not help that I was sick and had to start eating yogurt after surgery that is a no-no, but the dairy & not being able to train for a week did the trick, and the weight came right back up. The weight lifting performance dropped significantly at the same body weight. In the beginning the DOMS were hard to handle but it went away after about 2 weeks.
Sustained ketosis doesn't change the hunger, but changes the nature of hunger. Instead of an intense hunger pangs and distracted state on a higher protein/lower fat diet you get accumulating fatigue and a lethargy. Both states are easier to handle than the insane high carb grain fueled hunger when you are really and truly collapsing and go mental.
After the carb up, I feel more like a human and more energetic (hey, I am also recovering). All and all, I think carb down/carb up cycle is easier to handle than the sustained ketosis, but a sustained ketosis is something I will use as a solution when I am trying to hold a lost weight in conjunction with non-performance improving workout schedule.
Thank you for coaching me through the sustained ketosis, I will put it as another tool into my toolbox.
Right now I will concentrate on running UD2.0 until I can finally drop the summer fat layer and then try sustained ketosis to hold the low point.
Holy eff, this is hard! How do you guys not OD on protein?! I only had one small portion of meat today and my protein is 15g over my goal.
[QUOTE=heatseeker;979591]Holy eff, this is hard! How do you guys not OD on protein?! I only had one small portion of meat today and my protein is 15g over my goal.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't sound right. Are you measuring actual protein grams, or the total weight of your protein food? Big difference.
[quote]That doesn't sound right. Are you measuring actual protein grams, or the total weight of your protein food? Big difference.[/quote]
Actual protein grams. My food log on MFP says I ate 80g protein, and I'm aiming for 55-65.
I mean, 80g protein is not hard at all to hit. Up until now I've been eating 120g a day without difficulty. So the real trick for me here is dialing back my protein, and I'm definitely having some trouble out of the gate with that.
What are people's favorite meals when in ketosis? I love the Fat Bread with pate or soft cheese. For lunch I usually have cucumber slices topped with neufchatel cheese and italian coppa or salami. It was my dinner that blew up my protein with a 6oz portion of sirloin (SO TINY THOUGH--I already cut it down from a bigger piece!). Is it about just having tiny bits of meat and replacing those calories with, I don't know... more cheese? What are fatty things I can use in lieu of meat?
I'm having no trouble whatsoever with the carbs, because I was naturally sticking to 50-60g per day without tracking. My happy place is relatively low carb. So, cutting it down to <30g wasn't a problem. But keeping my protein down is HARD. I just don't know enough fatty foods to make up the difference. And it seems like everything has protein in it!
Slammed by a slab of meat. Yeah, the 6 oz steak looks teensy, especially if that's all that's on the plate. But if you slice it up r-e-a-l thin (after cooking), fan it out, eat it with a sauce of home-made mayo and horseradish, BAS, with dressing, on the side . . .
In other words, break down your hunks of meat into something smaller. Save that lovely slab for when you've IF'd 24 hours. Same with cans of salmon and tuna, which could blow your protein allowance all in one go.
[quote]But if you slice it up r-e-a-l thin (after cooking), fan it out, eat it with a sauce of home-made mayo and horseradish, BAS, with dressing, on the side . . .[/quote]
That is excellent advice. I didn't even think about the psychological aspect of it all. Make it look bigger and it will feel bigger.
Yep, I have found it very easy to overshoot the proteins. 65 grams is not much at all, especially when you add in the 'incidental' proteins from the fats and veggies. I have gotten a bit more lenient, and allowing up to 70 grams. I seem to be dropping weight, and try not to stress about it.
As PP said, taking my teeny meat portion and dicing/slicing it up is great for making it look 'bigger' on the plate.
I just wanted to report back that I successfully completed my trial with ketosis (or at least EAT MOAR FAT; I never measured urine or blood ketones or even measured my food to ensure that I was actually in ketosis.)
I was able to keep my normal weight training routine (5/3/1) without any noticeable performance decrease. I did however feel like I had somewhat less "top-end" when sprinting up stairs and stuff, but weight training was no problem.
I dropped a couple pounds at the start and have yet to gain them back even though I resumed moderate carb over a week ago. I wasn' really aiming to lose any weight, it just happened. I feel like I got leaner, but without the carbs, my muscles didn't "pop" quite as much visually.
I did not measure my protein, but I tried to keep it moderate. I supplemented with lots of coconut oil + cocoa powder chocolate, coconut milk, and shredded coconut. I also did eat some carbs, mostly from carrots and canned pumpkin and the occasional piece of an apple.
My mood seemed to be somewhat more mellow and stable. I still had my afternoon crashes at work. These happened on days when I skipped lunch. Lately I've been supplementing with some salt throughout the day and so far the crashes seem to have gone away.
In a post earlier in this thread, I chided Leida for suggesting that UD2.0 was less difficult than Leangains. I still stand by this, but there was some truth to her response: the lean protein requirement of Leangains is somewhat difficult to hit if you're eating from a freezer of grassfed/pastured meat, since most cuts will be fairly high in fat. I went through a lot of my grassfed meat during my month of ketosis, more than when I was doing Leangains and eating mostly chicken breast and beef heart for protein.
All told, I enjoyed my ketosis experiment. I am no longer afraid of losing muscle from keeping protein low enough to maintain ketosis and will likely enter keto land again in the future when the mood strikes me.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread.