This annoys me to no end

[QUOTE=Owly;880005]You're arguing with a spambot.

And I don't buy the idea that fruit is anywhere near as problematic as sugar--there are many groups of hunter-gatherers who eat very large amounts of fruit and honey, and they are in good health and not obese or diabetic. But that's the unending argument around here, so I'm not particularly interested in turning this thread into yet another round of it.[/QUOTE]

Just a quick point, so as not to go round with it, but I think the point a lot of people miss is that the HGs who eat a lot of fruit and honey are also spending a whole lot of time in the sun and moving. Fructose, which is found in both, is inflammatory in large amounts but sunlight (D3) and exercise will counteract much of it, hence eating seasonally and getting outside. It's safe for someone who spends most of the day outside moving around. Most of us don't or can't spend nearly as much time outside so it isn't a good idea to go crazy with it.

[QUOTE=Blackcatbone;880020]Just a quick point, so as not to go round with it, but I think the point a lot of people miss is that the HGs who eat a lot of fruit and honey are also spending a whole lot of time in the sun and moving. Fructose, which is found in both, is inflammatory in large amounts but sunlight (D3) and exercise will counteract much of it, hence eating seasonally and getting outside. It's safe for someone who spends most of the day outside moving around. Most of us don't or can't spend nearly as much time outside so it isn't a good idea to go crazy with it.[/QUOTE]

It's also much easier to eat forms of refined sugars (just slides down your throat) than eating three apples (my jaws get tired just thinking about it).

I think what annoyed was her dismissing the fact that some people just can't handle whole grains or wheat. I am convinced that grains and wheat are why I am fat and I think more people need to know about/understand just how much they can *(&(& with some people.

I guess some people are that way about fruits and sugar. For me there is no moderating my consumption of wheat and grain products.

At any rate we need more solutions than "low fat" or moderation.... and she kind of dismisses that. It seems like everyone has a different mix of eating for successful loss- from full on low fat vegan to all I eat is meat and veggies. I LOVE that Mark focuses on experimentation and finding what works for you.

[QUOTE=Blackcatbone;880020]Just a quick point, so as not to go round with it, but I think the point a lot of people miss is that the HGs who eat a lot of fruit and honey are also spending a whole lot of time in the sun and moving. Fructose, which is found in both, is inflammatory in large amounts but sunlight (D3) and exercise will counteract much of it, hence eating seasonally and getting outside. It's safe for someone who spends most of the day outside moving around. Most of us don't or can't spend nearly as much time outside so it isn't a good idea to go crazy with it.[/QUOTE]

Most research on fructose is on isolated fructose in large quantities. There's simply not good evidence that fructose in the context of whole fruit has anywhere near the same effect. We are quite adamant around here about the difference between other isolated nutrients (micro or macro) and whole food consumption. Consider our debates about the carcinogenic issues in studies of grilled red meat and the offset we claim comes from antioxidant spices, for example.

In the same way, some of the impacts of fructose may be offset not only by sunlight and activity, but also by the presence of antioxidants and other chemical compounds in our fruit.

I'm not in any way stating that someone who is seriously obese with metabolic syndrome should go out and eat piles of fruit and buckets of honey. But I don't think that we would be seeing the epidemic of metabolic disorders that we see if people were eating lots of fruit instead of eating lots of sugar-laden processed foods (and even worse, sweet beverages). We simply wouldn't be getting sick the way we are now.

And as jojohaligo says, it's really hard to eat a large quantity of fruit, especially if one is also consuming adequate protein and fat. I probably eat vastly more fruit than many primals--usually 2-3 servings per day, sometimes more--and that's spread over an entire day and still contains far less fructose than one sees in studies of isolated fructose, which in many cases can be 100+ grams of fructose per day. For a reference, an apple contains about 10g of fructose.

I truly think it depends on the person what the right mix of whole foods is. No one should eat processed.... but in the realm of meat, fruit, veggies, dairy- it's all good. I mean there are people who's health changes for the better when they eliminate meat... It makes sense that some flourish when they eliminate fruit.

[QUOTE=magnolia1973;880082]I truly think it depends on the person what the right mix of whole foods is. No one should eat processed.... but in the realm of meat, fruit, veggies, dairy- it's all good. I mean there are people who's health changes for the better when they eliminate meat... It makes sense that some flourish when they eliminate fruit.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree with this--there are people who definitely seem to thrive on VLC (paleobird comes to mind), which pretty much requires eliminating almost all fruit except possibly berries in small quantities. Certainly someone with fructose malabsorption is going to feel a whole lot better if she skips the fruit bowl.

But I think the fruit thing is blown out of proportion. There is a massive difference between a fresh, organic apple and a spoonful of HFCS, just as there's a massive difference between grassfed steak and a processed hot dog made with CAFO mystery meat.

I genuinely believe that if people were raised from childhood eating quality meats and eggs, fresh fruits and vegetables, and healthy fats, along with a reasonable level of activity, we would see very, very few people with metabolic syndrome or other diet-related diseases.

I think you've said it before, Magnolia--it's not the bananas that were the problem.

Just a point of clarification for the record. I do not necessarily eat a VLC diet just because choco says I do. He also thinks I have an eating disorder just because I watch my carbs and don't wolf down pounds of sweet potatoes at a time.
LC yes, VLC no.
VLC is helpful for getting into ketosis and I experiment with that. I don't always live there permanently.

just sayin..........

Sorry paleobird, I thought you were doing full-time VLC for ketogenic purposes. My mistake! Either way, I don't think you have an ED, just that you have specific health reasons for avoiding too many carbs, just like I have to be extra-vigilant about gluten as a celiac and can't afford the "cheats" that some other people can.

[QUOTE=cori93437;879742][IMG]http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee173/cori93437/Random%20Stuff/28d81642b5ea11e1af7612313813f8e8_7.jpg[/IMG] ;)[/QUOTE]

Bananas In Pajamas!

Holy crap, my kids used to love those guys!

I just thought they were a little... odd.

[QUOTE=Owly;880624]Sorry paleobird, I thought you were doing full-time VLC for ketogenic purposes. My mistake! Either way, I don't think you have an ED, just that you have specific health reasons for avoiding too many carbs, just like I have to be extra-vigilant about gluten as a celiac and can't afford the "cheats" that some other people can.[/QUOTE]

No problem, I have talked about ketogenic diets for therapeutic purposes in dealing with my epilepsy with less medication. But this is not something that I have put into full time action yet. Still in the research phase.
It's just that choco and some others tend to paint anyone who watches their carbs as some kind of zero carb extremist.