with my dinner last night I was a tad hungry, but it was getting late so I went ahead and cooked and ate. I should have listened to my body and stopped, I had a very clear moment when I thought, "ok you are done now" but kept eating anyway. And ended up feeling bloated as well. Gotta listen, now that the signals are getting clearer I really want to listen.
[QUOTE] Originally Posted by Ddraig Goch
Ok this is definitely my last investigative post for a while (forgot to add it earlier).
This post deals with the ketogenic ratio which determines if your meals are ketogenic:
Ketogenic Ratio and Weight Loss » Sweet Geek
That is the ratio of foods that raise ketones vs. the foods that lower ketones, i.e. produce glucose.
Ketogenic Ratio (KR) = (Fat * .9 + Protein * .46) / (Carb + Protein * .58 + Fat * .1)
Ketogenic Ratio Description
< 1.0 Not ketogenic, if healthy you won’t register ketones
1.0 – 1.5 Mildly ketogenic, you may register ketones at this level
1.5 – 2.0 Ketogenic, most people will register ketones
> 2.0 Very ketogenic, you should definitely see ketones in this range
This does not take into account the energy expended by body fat being burnt once you are keto adapted.
This link looks at this problem Lucas Tafur: Total Ketogenic Ratio (TKR) but to be honest there are too many unknown variables (read the link) to know how accurate it is. The author suggests that whilst the KR ratio underestimates, this one overestimates so its snot really worth worrying about.
Taking my current macros of P 55g.C 6g Cals 135 0 (thus giving me F 123g)
KR = (123x0.9+55x0.46) / (6+55x0.58+123x0.1) = 2.7
If I use the same Pg & Cg but my old cals of 1130 (giving me F 98g) I get
KR = 2.4
So the next question has to be ‘what is the lowest Fg that I can use to give KR>2.0?’
Using my little macro calculator I end up with P 55g.C 6g F 69g Cals 865.
NB: This would represent the numbers for my macros if I was taking the low cal route with no blood ketone monitor to check & probably a DD on JUDDD (note to self – need to read a bit more on JUDDD nearer the time)
Final question is ‘.what is the lowest Fg that I can use to give KR>1.5?’
Using my little macro calculator I end up with P 55g.C 6g F 45g Cals 645.
NB: This would definitely be the lowest I would go on any protein sparing modified fast or possible JUDDD DD[/QUOTE]
I don't claim to begin to even understand the what or whys behind this. However, I do find it interesting. I plugged in my numbers. I expected that my DDs would be 2 or great and my UDs lower. It's actually the reverse.
So what does this tell me (if anything)? Do I fix protein the same each day or do I lower protein on DDs? Interestingly, higher protein on UDs (around 70 g) seems to have a fine ratio...
W U/D Cal Pro Carbs Fat KR
161.2 UD 1705 78 49 140 1.50
161.4 DD 596 30 2 50 2.41
162.6 UD 1799 86 19 153 2.11
162.4 DD 421 39 7 22 1.19
162.4 UD 1675 66 19 148 2.27
162.2 DD 610 62 4 36 1.40
161.4 UD 1714 66 17 147 2.32
162 DD 473 43 8 20 1.08
UD 1724 93 11 140 2.14
DNW DD 339 26 7 19 1.21
161.2 UD 1722 71 17 153 2.32
160.2 DD 352 16 1 31 2.64
DNW UD 1751 112 14 139 1.90
DNW DD 253 28 4 15 1.21
DNW UD 1736 74 21 170 2.31
159.6 DD 402 42 10 22 1.07
158.2 UD 1771 48 11 177 3.21
mmm, looks like I have some math to do.
for my past 2 days the ud was 1.91 the dd was .995, unfortunately the equation is so complicated that I cannot tell how to adjust it. However, I don't believe that being deeper into ketosis is vastly better than just being in ketosis (I think this was from Dr. Eenfeldt, but not sure exactly where I read it). I will sit down and check a few random days and see if I can learn anything.
I have a spreadsheet with formulas:)
spreadsheets are the way to go..
Some people claim IF puts you in ketosis. So, does my dd meal kick me out or leave me in? I need a meter...
I am avoiding using the meter because my FBS is not in line. I would assume an IF would help you stay in.
I have avoided using the meter because my FBS is not in line either. I will re-think this when I get back and really start in on April 1st.
I feel like I am dipping in and out of NK, because of the taste in my mouth.
I think generally lower calories help put you into NK, but not sure.
Ruth, do you have the % that go with the grams for the days that you did all those calculations? Just trying to discern a pattern.
[QUOTE=RMS123;1138877]. I expected that my DDs would be 2 or great and my UDs lower. It's actually the reverse. [/QUOTE]
It’s to be expected thst your DD numbers would be lower because your protein & carbs should be the same as for an UD but you will be using a lot less fat to get the calories right
[QUOTE=RMS123;1138877]. So what does this tell me (if anything)? Do I fix protein the same each day or do I lower protein on DDs? Interestingly, higher protein on UDs (around 70 g) seems to have a fine ratio...
Yes the protein/carb quantity is the most important thing for NK. The fat is just to make up the calories (having said this I believe the fat needs to be high in the first few weeks as the body learns to switch to using ketones. But when you are keto adapted the fat is just for satiety).
As an example, When I plugged by numbers into JUDDD yesterday, my DD cals are 354 cals & my UD would be 1062 cals. My Pg = 55 & Cg=6. This would give me Fg=12.2 on a DD & Fg=90.8 on an UD.
If I feed these into the KR I get:
KR[SUB]UD[/SUB] = (90.9*0.9+55*0.46)/(6+55*0.58+90.9*0.1) = 2.27
KR[SUB]DD[/SUB] = (12.2*0.9+55*0.46)/(6+55*0.58+12.2*0.1) = 0.92
so I would tweak my DD by excluding the carbs giving me Fg = 14.8.
This would give me KR[SUB]DD = [/SUB](14.8*0.9+55*0.46)/(55*0.58+14.8*0.1) = 1.15
[I]NB: As well as checking my daily macros give me a KR>2 I also check my meals have a KR>1.5. See the lengths I have to go through to ensure I am in KR because I don’t have a monitor! So on my DD my preferred menu would be 155g chicken breast with 1 tbsp Mayo x2 which has a KR of 1.2[/I]
[B]Re IF & NK.[/B] I believe the best way to get into NK is the correct protein/carb & lots of fat to enable the body to open up the fat burning pathway. Over time the protein needs to be reduced slightly as the brain switches to ketones. Over time, as the body gets used to oxidising body fat the dietary fat can be reduced i.e. suppose you start off eating 83% fat & maintain weight. Suppose after a couple of months you are in steady NK & you reduce dietary fat by 20% to 65%. You will still be burning 85% fat, it’s just that the 20% deficit will come from body fat. And because you have maintained the correct protein level the whole time, you will not lose any muscle as you restrict calories.
[B]Now for IF.[/B] If you restrict calories enough your body will be forced to use body tissue for fuel (most especially to feed the brain)., If you are not already keto adapted, it will cannibalise muscle first as it finds it easier to oxidise muscle than body fat. Eventually it will get to the fat but only after you have lost muscle first & you will have none of the AS advantages of being keto adapted & your brain will not have switched to ketones so you will get brain fog.
But if you are keto adapted first, providing you keep your protein/carb macros steady (going too low on protein will affect muscle growth & regeneration) whilst you are fasting, you will continue to burn body fat, your brain will remain energised & AS will make the fast less painful.
I have two problems with JUDDD which I have yet to resolve.
1) Lets say your TDEE is 2000 cals. On a DD you ingest 500 cals. Because you are in steady KR the body takes the deficit 1500 cals from its fat stores. On a UD you ingest 2500 cals. But your body only need 2000 cals, so not only does it not burn any body fat, it stores the remaining 500 cals of dietary fat. So over the 2 days you have actually used 1000 cals of body fat & reminded the body how to store fat.
Whereas if you ingest 1500 cals each day ([500+2500]/2) the body will burn 500 cals of body fat daily to make up the deficit,thus remaining in a steady fat burning state over the 2 days without replenishing fat stores.
[I](NB: Apparently fat cells die off naturally & will not be regenerated if the body thinks it has no use for them. Constantly adding a bit of body fat every other day is less likely to make that happen)[/I]
2) To get the body into true fasting mode takes 8 hrs after the last meal. If you practise a daily fast of 16 hrs with an 8hr eating window you get 8hrs of true fat burning & all the health benefits of a fast for an 8 hrs period daily.
Suppose your last meal on an UD is 8pm & you start your DD with a BPC at 7am then eat a meal at lunch & finish with another BPC in the evening at 8pm. Then on next UP eat breakfast at 8am. You will have actually have ‘fasted’ for only a total of 6hrs over the 2 days. Dropping cals id not enough, you have to actually do the fast bit as well
[I]NB: The above is an illustration only, I’m not saying any of you actually do this & I realize the examples are simplified somewhat. I’m just providing some food for thought and an explanation of why I’m not doing it yet.
[/I]PS: I get your idea from earlier about the body liking a steady state & the need to mix things up a bit. You nearly had me convinced to start there & then but its all a learning curve & I want to learn how my body reacts to just fluctuating within a 100-150 cal range first.