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How do I make a non-primal listen, or atleast not judge me

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  • #16
    1

    [quote]

    He says, "It&#39;s just not worth my time." "I&#39;m a SCIENTIST - maybe you can fool your friends with non-science background with all your talk, but this is my career, please don&#39;t waste your time or mine!"</blockquote>


    The explorer Robert Falcon Scott has, over the last few years, been bad-mouthed by Ernest Shackleton groupies.


    In point of fact, this is unfair: both Scott and Shackleton came unstuck. Scott, as it happens, was a very methodical, well-organized man with a strong conscience. He planned everything well, and consulted all the experts. (In fact, he took more pains than Shackleton did, who was often lax and badly planned and organized.)


    Consulting the "experts" was Scott&#39;s mistake. Medical men in England thought they knew what he should do. They didn&#39;t.


    Norwegian explorers studied the Eskimo. Some of them went and lived with them. That was why they succeeded, and the Britons did less well - and in some cases died.


    Sometimes medical men do not know best. Sometimes what they know is conventional wisdom, and it often has a very flimsy basis. It&#39;s more prejudice than "science". Doctors thought you needed vegetables, fresh air, and exercise to ward off scurvy. They repeated this to themselves so often it became "scientific fact" for them.


    Vilhjamur Stefansson points out that while Scott and his men (and several previous expeditions - it seems some "men of science" don&#39;t learn from experience) had vegetables, had enough exercise to last a lifetime, and had fresh air in profusion, what really killed them was scurvy. Nansen, by contrast, was holed up over-winter in a cramped hut with Johansen, after the dash for the Pole with no vegetables, little fresh air, and virtually no exercise. They came out unscathed because they had freshly killed under-cooked meat.


    The "fresh air" and the "exercise" didn&#39;t matter a damn. What you must have to ward off scurvy is fresh food - and it doesn&#39;t matter whether it&#39;s vegetable food or it&#39;s flesh food: what matters is that it&#39;s very, very fresh.


    Incidentally, Stefansson is also very, very good on the importance of fat in the diet.


    Excellent reading for "primals":


    http://www.amazon.com/Life-Eskimo-New-Vilhjalmur-Stefansson/dp/1594626510/


    http://www.amazon.com/Fat-Land-Vilhjalmur-Stefansson/dp/B000OMLM4W/


    In any event, medical men "know" what they think they know. They can be completely wrong, as the story about Scott and Nansen shows. And sadly often repeated falsification of their theories doesn&#39;t change their mind.


    I don&#39;t know whether there&#39;s anything anyone can do about it - except let the matter drop.

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    • #17
      1



      @Katt: I agree.


      @Ethanol: Yep. But it feels like it&#39;s taking forever


      @Gnosis:


      @Aegle: That&#39;s my main gripe - dinner time was something I&#39;d look forward to. Now, with having to cook 2 different meals, we end up eating at different times


      @Kryz: I tried that but to no avail - he&#39;d ask me to remove those books! Journal is a great idea, a great way to vent!


      @Mick: Thanks for all that information. If only I could make him read this.


      I&#39;ve realized that he needs to change his attitude to even comprehend all this and it has to come from him, no matter how much I try, unless he&#39;s willing to listen, it&#39;s not going to happen

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      • #18
        1



        Don&#39;t forget, science is a religion in it&#39;s own way. The difference between scientism and spiritual religions is that the former will change over time, assimilating new data and arriving at newer conclusions.


        I remember an earth sciences professor in college poo-poing the new theory of tectonic plate movement. Now it&#39;s accepted as fact.


        Pre-Ancel Keyes most nutritionally oriented doctors and scientists saw the values of traditional, high nutrient density foods, even if a bit loaded with grains and tubers. My crystal ball says that these years, which we are just starting to come out of, will be looked at as wandering in the wilderness for a half century - to this point.


        I know what you mean about cooking two meals. I think Mark&#39;s wife is vegetarian, so that household probably does it, just like mine. At least with my old folks there is usually some overlap, like meat, eggs, and veggies. It&#39;s tough, but we have to do it.


        I saw the pain translated to a new low weight this AM on the scale. Keep it up. Er, down.

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        • #19
          1



          Well I don&#39;t really try. The proof is in the pudding

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          • #20
            1



            I didn&#39;t know who to talk to, so I figured I might as well post my frustrations here. My being primal is affecting the relationship between me and my husband. He asked me last week never to discuss my diet with him. And I&#39;ve kept my end of the bargain. I come home from work much later than he does but make sure I cook his meal first and make sure he&#39;s fed and then start cooking my primal meals. Today I asked him to help me and he deigned. I was cooking my stuff while he was his. Then he noticed the amount of coconut oil I was using and he got really pissed and said I was spoiling my life and all that. And when I started to explain why CO is good, he stuck both his fingers in his ears. I even had Mary Enig&#39;s "Eat Fat, Lose Fat" extolling the benefits of CO, right near me and I asked him to read it if he was interested. He&#39;s like, "You are trying to tell ME what is good?!!" and his usual stuff about how he knows everything and I don&#39;t know anything. I told him I can send him scientific articles and he&#39;s like anything that I send won&#39;t be good enough for him. And then he starts invoking religion, we&#39;re Hindus, and how it&#39;s wrong to eat meat everyday blah blah. I was raised a Hindu and I don&#39;t think I was ever told our religion forbade eating meat. So he ended our argument by saying he doesn&#39;t see a future for both of us. I feel completely distressed and don&#39;t know where to vent out all this. I apologize if this is too much information or if I&#39;m not adding anything of significance to the forum.

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            • #21
              1



              He sounds like quite a jerk.

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              • #22
                1



                Thanks for bringing this up! Actually, your struggle has great significance to the forum. It illuminates the way diet and religion are intertwined, and how they can sever close relationships.


                I&#39;m sorry to hear of your fight; sounds like a harrowing experience. You cook his meals and your own meals? That&#39;s dedication, Maba.


                Today I watched the "Sugar: The Bitter Truth" and your predicament came to mind.


                Even though this may *not* be the best time to do diet wars with your husband, perhaps--when you sense the time is right--you could offer an invitation. Something like: "I don&#39;t want to fight over this issue, and I apologize if I&#39;ve been too militant about it. Please don&#39;t take what&#39;s on my plate as a personal judgment on you. You did ask me for scientific information, so I found some and I just have one request: If you feel like it, could you please do me a favor and watch this lecture by an endocrinologist at a well-respected university [give the name and credentials of the doctor]? I&#39;d really like to learn your opinion on this, even if you disagree with the lecturer. After this, we don&#39;t ever have to speak about what we eat if you&#39;d like."


                Of course, at this point, asking him to see the documentary may be too much. It may well be that sitting down with a marriage counselor who&#39;d help both of you to listen to one another and to learn from each other without judgment is the best solution.

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                • #23
                  1

                  [quote]

                  It may well be that sitting down with a marriage counselor who&#39;d help both of you to listen to one another and to learn from each other without judgment is the best solution.</blockquote>


                  We&#39;ve been doing that for the last 2.5 years, although it&#39;s not about our diets.

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                  • #24
                    1



                    Yikes.

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                    • #25
                      1



                      maba, this made me so sad to read about your fight!

                      I get a feeling about your husband that being a "scientist" is not why he is ignoring you and all the science that is backing you up. I think its the fact that he is a well-to-do male brought up in a male-oriented society and you are a woman, who cooks his meals and who should not try to teach him anything- because you dont know anything anyway- BECAUSE U R A WOMAN.

                      This hits home as my first husband was the same and even i got 3 university degrees while married to him he never stopped treating me like a stupid little girl. That one reason i appreciate my current husband SO MUCH! He actually treats me ecqually. And believes in my intelligence even when im introducing things that go against what he has always believed to be true (we have our own points of discussions- the historic, geologic point of view on global warming for ex.)


                      I dont know what to say except- you need to be respected in a close longterm relationship... id demand my husband to show me a little respect by at least giving it a bit of his time to study what his wife is being so passionate about.

                      challenge yourself
                      i blog here http://theprimalwoman.blogspot.com/

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                      • #26
                        1



                        Yeah, I know a lot of biology grad students, PhDs, MD/PhDs, etc. Some of them (like my wife) are perfectly receptive to iconoclastic statements about nutrition. But it&#39;s amazing how some of them will get blue in the face and kick and scream and insist that the dogma is true. And what&#39;s more amazing is that they will do this despite their field of research being nothing to do with human nutrition. They probably wouldn&#39;t think of acting in the same way about most fields in which they aren&#39;t an expert -- an immunologist isn&#39;t likely to rant at you if you state an unorthodox idea about neurobiology. But wow, if you transgress any of the major tenets of the diet-heart hypothesis, low fat high carb high fiber diet, etc., even though they&#39;ve likely never touched the primary literature regarding it in their life, they&#39;ll act as if they have, and that it clearly shows incontrovertible evidence that official government recommendations are 100% true because governments never screw anything up ever.


                        Phew.


                        These people are exhausting to be around and think about (and it makes you wonder about the quality of their research in their actual field), and I can&#39;t imagine being married to one. But fundamentally this is a marriage issue, not a nutrition argument issue. If my wife told me the sky was orange or purple, I&#39;d at least hear her out and maybe go have a look. He needs to realize that his behavior is very difficult to reconcile with any marriage vows with which I am familiar, and give himself an attitude adjustment. I suggest bringing it up with the marriage counsellor.

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                        • #27
                          1



                          @Eva, you&#39;re absolutely right! He treats even his mom the way he treats me. I didn&#39;t want to air my dirty linen in public and tried to imply that without actually saying it. With this diet, I&#39;m actually able to think more clearly w/o being emotional. I&#39;m trying my best to make it a win-win situation for all. Thank you for your words.


                          @Nick: Yes, this is more of a relationship issue than nutrition issue and I do feel embarrassed for having brought it up here in the forum. But you have all been nothing but supportive. He&#39;s the kind who&#39;ll do the exact opposite of what I tell him even if he knows it&#39;s wrong, just to spite me! When I tell him HFCS is not good for you, he&#39;ll go get something loaded with just that and make sure he drinks/eats it in my presence. Even this evening his refrain was, "What makes you think you know more than me?"


                          About the quality of research, all I hear him say is, "I want to be a famous researcher". No, not ground-breaking research to advance medicine but to do something so he has his name in the annals of history. I feel like a traitor talking about him, but that is the sad truth. Sometimes I wonder if it&#39;s his diet that is making behave the way he does.

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                          • #28
                            1



                            Maba I&#39;m sorry for what you are going through. As many have pointed out before, I think you are dealing with a core relationship issue. But then there might be cultural factors in play that many of us are not aware of.


                            I perceive your husband&#39;s behaviour as insecure, patronizing and aggressive. That the issue being questioned is not important, it&#39;s the questioning itself what he perceives as a threat to his self-worth. So, in response, he tries to minimize your self-worth. It seems that, to him, it&#39;s more of a power struggle.


                            I&#39;d say it&#39;s evident that the above does not lead to a healthy relationship. My advice would be to decide how you want to be treated, hold your ground, and see what happens. Also remember that, at the end, it&#39;s always your choice.


                            Best of lucks.

                            “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
                            "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
                            "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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                            • #29
                              1



                              @SS: Are you my marriage counsellor by any chance?? Because that&#39;s EXACTLY what he told me as well! That his insecurities are manifesting as Passive-Aggressiveness.


                              When I first discovered MDA, I forget which post it was, but a commenter had mentioned what a PA Jerk he was before and how the diet changed him completely (I can&#39;t find that post) and maybe it&#39;s my blind optimism that is preventing me from making a choice. Pre-Primal, I&#39;d end up crying all night after a fight, but I&#39;m surprised that I find myself not crying these days and instead try to think of what best I can do for given the situation.

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                              • #30
                                1



                                Maba it is easier to see the big picture from our shoes than from yours. Respect and communication are, imo, the core values of a healthy relationship. You deserve yours, and life is short. Especially for non-primals

                                “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
                                "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
                                "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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