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  • #61
    I'd like to talk more about dietary glucose. If we want our livers to do less work, and eat the glucose we need in glucose form (not as fat that will be converted to glucose in the body, etc), is starch the only option? Or do we get significant dietary glucose from any fruits/veg? [ETA: Here is a great Emily Deans post a/b foods high in fructose, vs those w/ better glucose to fructose ratios. http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogsp...-fructose.html The amount of fructose in most fruit would probably make it a less-than-ideal source of glucose. But I'm still interested in learning more about this!]

    I just can't get over how much starch this book pushes. I've experimented, and it is more starch than my body can handle personally w/out craving tons of carbs (probably more than recommended) and/or gaining weight. I always come back to *what feels best to me* so plan to go back to low starch, but I'd also like my liver to need to do the minimum amount of work necessary.

    Anyhow, I'd love any links or resources you all have on dietary glucose sources, and how much we _really_ need (to avoid gluconeogenesis, which is what it seems this book is pushing for us to do***...I'm not sure I buy that gluconeogenesis is a *bad* thing either, but I'm just interested in learning more on all this...)

    ***I may have this wrong--don't have a copy of the book in front of me atm. I do recall ketogenic fasts as being recommended as well, which I think would cause GNG, so I may be totally off on why they recommend so much starch...
    Last edited by FairyRae; 11-17-2010, 07:16 AM.
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    • #62
      FairyRae, if you haven't read Primal Body - Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas, you might find it interesting. She hates fruit and starch. Also, she is big on caloric restriction to increase longevity. She recommends just enough protein, minimal carbs which are from non-starchy and non-fruit sources, and fat just to the edge of satiety. While she never actually gets into specific numbers, it sounds to me like she is recommending about 1400-1800 calories at most for a woman depending on size.

      Also, I don't know if you've seen this table, but it has sugar contents of common fruits and a few candies.

      http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritio...its_table.html

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Adrianne View Post
        FairyRae, if you haven't read Primal Body - Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas, you might find it interesting. She hates fruit and starch. Also, she is big on caloric restriction to increase longevity. She recommends just enough protein, minimal carbs which are from non-starchy and non-fruit sources, and fat just to the edge of satiety. While she never actually gets into specific numbers, it sounds to me like she is recommending about 1400-1800 calories at most for a woman depending on size.

        Also, I don't know if you've seen this table, but it has sugar contents of common fruits and a few candies.

        http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritio...its_table.html
        That's kinda interesting, what's her stance on exercise though? I'm not of the belief that you need to over-eat if you're exercising, but are those 14-1600 kcals AFTER factoring in exercise? Meaning, if I eat 2400 cals but "lose" 1000 through exercise am I cool in her book or did I over eat?
        I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
          That's kinda interesting, what's her stance on exercise though? I'm not of the belief that you need to over-eat if you're exercising, but are those 14-1600 kcals AFTER factoring in exercise? Meaning, if I eat 2400 cals but "lose" 1000 through exercise am I cool in her book or did I over eat?
          She recommends minimal exercise, with more of the weightlifting type rather than the cardio type. She also doesn't talk about eating to make up for an exercise deficit, but it seems from her tone that she wouldn't recommend burning 1000 then eating 1000 to make up for it. She says exercise bouts should be no more than 20 minutes in duration.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Adrianne View Post
            FairyRae, if you haven't read Primal Body - Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas, you might find it interesting. She hates fruit and starch. Also, she is big on caloric restriction to increase longevity. She recommends just enough protein, minimal carbs which are from non-starchy and non-fruit sources, and fat just to the edge of satiety. While she never actually gets into specific numbers, it sounds to me like she is recommending about 1400-1800 calories at most for a woman depending on size.

            Also, I don't know if you've seen this table, but it has sugar contents of common fruits and a few candies.

            http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritio...its_table.html
            I have _PB-PM_ and have read it twice. Still working on absorbing it though. I'll go back and reread the stuff on carbs for the alternate perspective. As far as caloric restriction goes, I got the impression that regular IFs would have similar impacts as continued low calorie eating. (If my memory is correct, some of the sited research on caloric restriction in her book was related to fasting...?)

            Thanks for the table--I'll check it out now!


            ETA: I do recall that she recommends just about the same amount of protein as the Perfect Health Diet folks do. Approx. 55 grams a day (PHD says 50 grams/200 cals a day). Very interesting...
            Last edited by FairyRae; 11-17-2010, 08:50 AM.
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            • #66
              I'm enjoying reading the book, but I'm chipping in on the advice to avoid supplementing zinc in the Perfect Diet. The reasons given for this are that a) zinc reduces levels of copper in the body (which I guess is why my zinc supplement has copper in it) and b) zinc feeds pathogens. This second point I think ties into the theory of chronic infections causing many diseases, and I wonder if this is a particular bias of Paul's, having cured himself of something nasty - I don't know what.

              Personally, I can't get enough zinc from my diet - i don't know why, and have to continue to supplement. If I go quiet, you can assume I've got some horrendous zinc-fuelled brain infection.

              What I do like about the book is the theme of optimising your immune system to control nasty things over the long term - can't be a bad thing, and will be looking into the iodine supplementation they recommend.
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              • #67
                Originally posted by racingsnake View Post
                I'm enjoying reading the book, but I'm chipping in on the advice to avoid supplementing zinc in the Perfect Diet. The reasons given for this are that a) zinc reduces levels of copper in the body (which I guess is why my zinc supplement has copper in it) and b) zinc feeds pathogens.
                zinc is also a major player in immune function though. and it only reduces copper levels at higher intakes anway - more than what most of us are taking. Also, there are genetic metabolic issues that can rapidly deplete zinc.

                I love parts of the book but others parts are just so far off that it's...well, it's important to be skeptical and critical. He misses some significant things.

                Some of his 'references' are *hysterical*.
                Last edited by cillakat; 12-11-2010, 01:08 PM.



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                • #68
                  Also, there are genetic metabolic issues that can rapidly deplete zinc.
                  As an aside, are you able to give a quick idea of what this issues might be? I'm trying to work out what my ongoing zinc deficiency is all about.
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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by cillakat View Post
                    Well, Mercola handles vitamin D reasonabley well but he's unbearable. I just can't ever recommend him any more.

                    Your comment made me smile. Some people do find Mercola their equivalent of Dr Oz. LOL. I used to subscribe to Mercola's emails and newsletter but he grew tiresome and I found gentler sources of information he was regurgitating.
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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by cillakat View Post
                      I love parts of the book but others parts are just so far off that it's...well, it's important to be skeptical and critical. He misses some significant things.

                      Some of his 'references' are *hysterical*.
                      Which parts is he so far off on Cillakat, and what is it that he misses?

                      Thanks. I'm reading it now.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by primalpilgrim View Post
                        Your comment made me smile. Some people do find Mercola their equivalent of Dr Oz. LOL. I used to subscribe to Mercola's emails and newsletter but he grew tiresome and I found gentler sources of information he was regurgitating.
                        I subscribe to Mercola. On any particular day, it is a crap shoot between getting some great information or having a really good laugh.
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                        • #72
                          Relevant criticism on the low protein recs in PHD from Don Matsez at Primal Wisdom: http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/0...gevity-my.html
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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by FairyRae View Post
                            Relevant criticism on the low protein recs in PHD from Don Matsez at Primal Wisdom: http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/0...gevity-my.html
                            Thanks, FairyRae. I think Don does a good job of discrediting the mice studies in the Perfect Health Diet that purport to indicate that reducing protein intake helps with longevity. OTOH, when he makes statements like this, "Iím gambling a lifetime of restriction for a mere 7 extra years, assuming I donít die accidentally in the mean time," I can tell that Don is fairly young and thinks the end of his life is so far away he can't imagine it very well. Let me tell you, when you get closer to the end of your life, if you are enjoying it at all, 7 to 10 years is a very significant number. Most of the elderly are not actually sort of "ready to die," or just waiting for the end, as Don apparently imagines and as apparently many younger politicians now seem to imagine. Many of the elderly are living an active, useful and fun life. I find Don's attitude that 7 to 10 years can be described as "mere" somewhat offensive in its implications for the elderly. However, I do think his arguments against the mice studies make sense.

                            My personal experience is that the PB way of eating tends to make us increase our intake of proteins and fruits while limiting starch intake. For me, the increased intake in protein and fruit seems to have caused painful gout episodes, while the reduced starch intake has caused a marked reduction in energy and ability to do endurance exercise. I see quite a few posts here by others mentioning gout or gout like episodes since going primal, so I believe it's more than coincidence.

                            I note that Mark in his blog has backed off on his restrictions of rice and potatoes.

                            I'm still more or less following the Primal Blueprint, but for me it means avoiding wheat products, sugars, especially fructose and HFCS, and legumes, but continuing to eat rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes and occasional limited fruit. My own experience makes me think that paleo man needed starches too, though I'm not sure where he got them.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Sam Cree View Post
                              My own experience makes me think that paleo man needed starches too, though I'm not sure where he got them.
                              Probably "need" isn't the right word but rather, to borrow from SerialSinner, "evolved to take advantage of when they were available". So so many do well on VLC, high fat. Some probably are overdoing protein (though this is unrelated to gout) or specific high protein/high purine foods (which appears to be related to gout) and/or have damaged purine/uric acid metabolism and can't excrete the uric acid probably. Based on the currently available literature though, it's pretty clear that protein alone is not the problem but rather specific high protein foods in conjunction with specific metabolic and dietary factors.

                              Best,
                              Katherine



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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by cillakat View Post
                                Probably "need" isn't the right word but rather, to borrow from SerialSinner, "evolved to take advantage of when they were available". So so many do well on VLC, high fat. Some probably are overdoing protein (though this is unrelated to gout) or specific high protein/high purine foods (which appears to be related to gout) and/or have damaged purine/uric acid metabolism and can't excrete the uric acid probably. Based on the currently available literature though, it's pretty clear that protein alone is not the problem but rather specific high protein foods in conjunction with specific metabolic and dietary factors.

                                Best,
                                Katherine
                                Katherine, your presence here and your carefully thought out posts really add a lot to this site. I for one am thankful for them.

                                I'm sure that even with my readjusted starch intake, I eat far fewer carbs than I did before I went primal. Cutting out breads and sugars has got to have eliminated a significant proportion of them. It's easy to eat lots of sweets and breads, but not so much on other starches. In any case, I lost weight rapidly as soon as I started following Mark's program and I attribute it to cutting out carbs from sugars and breads.

                                Yes, it is kind of hard to imagine where paleo man got his starches from, especially if he was on the move much of the time, as I suppose most hunter/gatherers are. I'm sort of to the point where I think paleo man ate everything pretty sporadically and opportunistically. He got what he could, when he could instead of following a specific diet. His routines would probably have been closely related to the seasons. So Grok may have eaten quite a lot of protein, fat and carbs, but not likely measured out in scientific quantities at each meal. This would echo the random sort of exercise that the PB recommends.

                                I will say that my allergies are very much improved since going primal.

                                What I'm looking for now are ways to make sure I get enough fat, though I suppose I get plenty through meat, eggs, certain fishes, etc. Wife is still trying to avoid it, it's hard to go against what you've believed for years.

                                Barry
                                Last edited by Sam Cree; 01-18-2011, 08:17 AM.

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