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Butter vs. vegetable oils article from a nutritionist

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  • Butter vs. vegetable oils article from a nutritionist

    Hello,

    Here's something I found. According to the link below, looking at the evidence from large studies, butter isn't that good for cardiovascular health. And also the much mentioned connection of omega-6 with inflammation has no basis in scientific research. I think the guy in question who wrote the article is fairly level-headed and reasonable author and has a neutral and scientific point of view so looking at the available evidence I should maybe reconsider my pro-butter stance. Thoughts?

  • #2
    I think you forgot the link.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by yodiewan View Post
      I think you forgot the link.
      Whoooops. Here:

      Scientific data: butter is not healthier than margarine

      Comment


      • #4
        His points....and what I think....

        Point one: Times have changed and these oils (margarine and such) arent the same as they use to be. OK. Fair point. But this only shows that what we have now isn't quite as bad as what we had then. Not really sure what this proves. Straw man if you ask me as not all probutter argument is based ONLY on these older trials.

        Point two: He states an O3 and O6 meta-analysis trial shows reduced cardiovascular risk. Do I have to point out that "meta-analysis" many times just means "we included studies to support our per-conceived notions and excluded data that would refute it". Now I'm not sure the criteria here, but it happens quite frequently, so I'd suggest you check into that. In addition what about all cause mortality? Do I lower my risk of cardiovascular disease by 21% just to increase my risk of cancer by 35% with the extra PUFA?

        Point three: The Sydney Heart study has limitations....this randomized study shows increased CVD risk with vegetable oils and margarine. He claims the LA was too high in this study. 15% (in trial) vs like 7% (average American). Seems like a legit concern, however I wonder at its implication. If America was to totally switch from the use of saturated fats to ALL margarine and vegetable oil wouldn't that bring our average up to 15%? Isn't that what people who are recommending vegetable oils and margarine are leading us toward?

        Part four: Use of olive oil, margarine, and soy oil alone or in mulifactoral intervention have reduced risk of cardiovascular morbidity/mortality.....wow do I even have to point out how useless that statement is? Toooooo many variables. Multifactoral ones prove nothing, nobody is actually arguing against olive oil, there is no smoking gun in any of these in regards to butter, and we are still stuck only analyzing CVD with no data on all cause mortality!


        Ok so I've made it to page 30 out of 47 and to point five. I may come back to this, but probably not. I'm not really seeing anything I didn't know here. I am seeing that this slide pointedly ignores all opposing data though.

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        • #5
          This is a good example of how cherry-picking and skewing can lead you to whatever conclusion you like. It is well known that pufas provoke an inflammatory response. Publications - Selected Bibliography

          As for omega3 supplements having no effect...probably don't.... which is why you need to eat fish rather than some rancid tablet derived form their long dead corpses. All omega 3 pufas are not created equal.

          As for margarine having less trans fats and vegetable oils altered state since the 70s; did he look at the composition of these oils after heating? They are stable at low temps but significantly altered at higher temps found in cooking. I won't be going for some fries at McDonald's until someone comes up with something a little more rigorous than this.
          Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
          www.primaljoy.co.uk

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MaceyUK View Post
            This is a good example of how cherry-picking and skewing can lead you to whatever conclusion you like. It is well known that pufas provoke an inflammatory response. Publications - Selected Bibliography

            As for omega3 supplements having no effect...probably don't.... which is why you need to eat fish rather than some rancid tablet derived form their long dead corpses. All omega 3 pufas are not created equal.

            As for margarine having less trans fats and vegetable oils altered state since the 70s; did he look at the composition of these oils after heating? They are stable at low temps but significantly altered at higher temps found in cooking. I won't be going for some fries at McDonald's until someone comes up with something a little more rigorous than this.
            Yeah, I thought about trying to put together some good data and a coherent arguement, but then I realized it would take more than the 47 or so slides the OP has posted just to cover a portion of the data. Its just not worth the time and effort. There are lots of credible sources who have done so already anyhow.

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            • #7
              If you don't want it, can I have your butter? Thanks!

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              • #8
                I approach the question of butter vs margarine from an ignorant peasant's POV......... if it's something I can make in my own kitchen then I trust that it's okay to eat. I will always distrust a product that has to be produced in a factory. No study is going to change my mind.
                Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
                  No study is going to change my mind.
                  Yup, seems highly unlikely anyone on this forum is going to be like "oh okay, I'm to switch to hardened grain oil!".

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                  • #10
                    Of the total of 4 randomized controlled trials out there that have substituted saturated fat for vegetable oils; there has been a nonsignificant increased risk of non-fatal myocardial infarction, and an increased risk that has statistical significance for all cause mortality when vegetable oils were substituted for saturated fat sources.

                    When checking for citations in that link, the sources don't provide correlations between saturated fat and CHD. Multifactorial trials feature uncontrolled non-dietary variables and huge methodological shortcomings. If anything, when checking the facts, there is an inverse relationship between saturated fat intake and CHD.

                    The Sydney heart trial had no differentiation between specific PUFA. When the PUFA was stratified into n-6 and n-3/n-6, the former nonsignificantly increased the risk of CHD death and the risk of death from all causes to statistical significance. This shows that one was opposing the other.

                    All in all, this is just the dying breath of 5 decades worth of junk science.
                    Last edited by Derpamix; 12-16-2013, 05:36 PM.
                    Make America Great Again

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                    • #11
                      Margarine sales must be down.

                      M.

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                      • #12
                        Butter vs. vegetable oils article from a nutritionist

                        Lol wtf.

                        Not only is he saying veggie oil is better than butter... He is saying ***hydrogenated*** veggie oil (margarine) is better for health???

                        Trans-fats (produced by industrial hydrogenation... ) clog up your arteries. They are the enantiomers of saturated fats, meaning non-superimposable mirror images (around any particular carbon-carbon bond) that are not really able to be processed by the body because the body's enzymes are highly conformation specific. Think of putting on the wrong glove on your hands... It doesn't fit quite right. This is why the body's enzymes cannot process these trans carbon-carbon double bonds (they only process cis double bonds for the most part). Enzyme functions are highly dependent on how a molecule looks in 3D. Long story short, they accumulate in your blood stream.

                        To add to the fact that trans fats cannot be processed by your body, it is highly stackable because trans fats are basically zig zag shaped and easily stacked and attacted to each other via London/Van der Waals forces. Great for clogging up your arteries, unlike saturated fats which are readily metabolized by your body (since it is a naturally occurring fat) and worse than naturally-occurring unsaturated fats which aren't in perfect zig zag conformations.

                        You can keep your nasty trans fat frankenfood and I will use my butter and coconut oil. Even without going into a veggie oil vs animal fat debate (which I could go on forever about) margarine sucks.

                        My ranking
                        Low fat with only saturated fats bc PUFA will slip in with even butter/eggs/etc > more fat with only saturated fats > monounsaturated fats > polyunsaturated fats > trans fats

                        As much as I hate PUFA I will once in a while eat something with PUFA because at least my body can eventually process it. With trans fat... No chance because of the above enantiomers problem. Ew ew ew.
                        Last edited by turquoisepassion; 12-17-2013, 08:37 AM.
                        ------
                        HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          His points....and what I think....

                          Point two: He states an O3 and O6 meta-analysis trial shows reduced cardiovascular risk. Do I have to point out that "meta-analysis" many times just means "we included studies to support our per-conceived notions and excluded data that would refute it". Now I'm not sure the criteria here, but it happens quite frequently, so I'd suggest you check into that. In addition what about all cause mortality? Do I lower my risk of cardiovascular disease by 21% just to increase my risk of cancer by 35% with the extra PUFA?
                          In the later slides he also takes on the point that PUFA reduces cancer. At least according to the studies he posted there doesn't seem to be a connection.

                          Why I posted this was that I've read this guys stuff (mostly in Finnish) and at least to me he seems quite impartial in his articles, sometimes criticizing also more mainstream views. He is also familiar with the arguments of the paleo scene but isn't convinced by them. Maybe it's more a question of what kind of methodology is considered good evidence. I know from a n=1 perspective butter / coconut oil / her non pufa fats work well with my health and I'm not going to change my habits at least yet. OTOH I'm pretty young (<30) and from what I understand, there is no real way for me to see very clearly how my current diet is going to affect my risk for heart disease 20-30 years from now. Also the debate for the methodology, relevance of meta-analyses etc. goes over my head. Our bodies are very complex (and individual) so it's of course very hard to get reliable information but OTOH these methodologies are what the people who have studied these issues trust and if so the arguments against this view should be very convincing for me to believe otherwise. Is there any good reading available regarding the issue of methodology somewhere?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by turquoisepassion View Post
                            Lol wtf.

                            Not only is he saying veggie oil is better than butter... He is saying ***hydrogenated*** veggie oil (margarine) is better for health???
                            Actually he's not saying that. He's saying that the situation from the Sydney study has changed because the margarines contain almost negligible amount of trans fat nowadays.

                            BTW, I'm bringing this up mostly due discussion. I would never use or recommend margarines personally, but I am wondering about the connection of omega-6 to inflammation. The last time I looked (random pubmed stuff) there didn't seem to be a correlation between those two and it makes me wonder if I've been avoiding nuts / some cold pressed nut/seed oils for no real reason.

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                            • #15
                              Butter vs. vegetable oils article from a nutritionist

                              Hydrogenation outside animals' bodies by definition is adding hydrogens trans across a carbon-carbon double bond to make a trans fat. Margarine wouldn't be solidified if it wasn't hydrogenated. Hence I don't buy the "less trans fat" shit. Margarine is hydrogenated veggie oil, hence it has trans fat in it.


                              (outside animal body... We don't have the isomer specific enzymes to add hydrogen in a cis conformation and naturally due to crowding around the C=C bond it is infinitely easier to add a trans pair of H than cis without isomer specific enzymes)

                              The studies related to o-6 and inflammation has been posted to death on mda so I am not even going to address that. Just do a simple forum search for omega 6.
                              ------
                              HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

                              My Journal: gelatin experiments, vanity pictures, law school rants, recipe links


                              Food blog: GELATIN and BONE BROTH recipes

                              " The best things in life are free and the 2nd best are expensive!" - Coco Chanel

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