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Research that vegan diet is best and our ancestors were not big meat eaters

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  • #16
    A lot of fruits and vegetables, soy foods (mix of tofu and stuff like tofurkey), beans, wheat stuff like tortillas, apple cider, bread and soy margarine. Rice, Indian food, ethnic foods that are vegan, pasta. Oatmeal with soy milk.

    It was a pretty varied diet, not a fully "junk food" vegan diet, not a full on whole foods only vegan diet.

    I think it is a small % of people who could be vegetarian or vegan and not eat the junk foods. I'm from the belief that all the research in the world is fine, but if people can't comply the diet is pointless. I did not know many vegans or vegetarians that ate a clean diet (ie, vegetables, whole grains, fruits and legumes). Most ate a good deal of processed (including myself)- because that clean diet isn't satisfying.

    Primal (and Paleo) to me, is the best combination of clean foods PLUS satisfaction which= compliance over a long term. I had short segments of time where I are clean vegan or vegetarian, but measured in weeks, not months. I see a lot of women vegetarians who are full on raging sugar addicts (like I once was).

    So I don't know, maybe the science proves that a vegan diet is best, but I have a feeling once you start looking at the processed foods, it's not much better than SAD. Given that most vegans eat the "fake foods" because it is such an unsatisfying way to eat, it's about impossible to practice.

    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
      I have seen some of the links before and read articles written by both of them which are full of misinformation and poor logic . If you have a particular paper you would like me to read please post it- I hope you checked out my links.
      As I said watch the video and google the papers. I think your talking about the actual movie, I am talking about the presentation video on my link.

      As for her site, wow, I could pick holes in it all day long. I have only skimmed it so far but if she was a really clever girl (same for the individuals that made the film) she would realise basing evidence on diet from 1940's is a huge flaw in itself. There are SO many variables that are different these days that make that data completely bunk. From farming methods, GM crops, pesticides, increase in mercury incidence in fish etc etc etc. Maybe I have misread, I will read in detail later.

      EDIT: Just looking in particular at her 5 and 10% casien remarks, if you actually read the paper it clearly states 10% is optimum, she is as guilty as the guys in the film for 'polishing the turd' when it comes to presenting some of the data.... not saying she does that throughout but thats just one point I picked up on within 10 mins. I will continue to investigate.

      If you watch the video I linked too and look at those papers they all range from 1970's until the present day recent research over the last decade with actual data on humans, not rats, flies or any other animal is credible.

      I am not saying people should go vegan, merely pointing out that there is very very substantial data showing the effects of a high/pure plant based diet. Is this the effect of how your meat is farmed or how it goes from a field to your plate? I don't know yet I am still reading around the subject.

      One thing I do know though, if you come to this site and follow it without question your doing better than most. It would be foolish to think everything Mark says is correct though. Mark tells you to eat nuts, the Bullet proof exec tells you they are covered in mycotoxins. Who is correct? what do you eat? For every positive on a food there is a negative. I have studied three main sites that have huge followings on the net. If I religiously implemented them all, I would only eat coconut milk, vegetables and berries... All provide credible evidence and they all have dedicated followers.... Apply all 3 and you come out with a vegan diet.

      So what do you do?
      Last edited by eenu; 10-08-2012, 09:14 AM.

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      • #18
        Those videos, particularly the first one, have been posted here perhaps hundreds of times by people trolling vegetarianism/veganism.

        And we've had quite a bit of McDougall discussion too...

        The I've watched the first one, and an in depth examination of it's "facts" by several different such as Denise Minger.
        I'm just not even interested in any examination of the second.
        Maybe examine some other stuff... Primal Body Primal Mind by Nora Gedguadas

        Or... go be a vegan and have fun with that. *shrug*
        But trying to convince people here that it's "healthier" is likely a serious shot in the dark.
        Also... a healthful diet is a personal thing IMO. Why are you trying to rope people into YOUR idea of healthful, when you know that's not what is considered the way to go at this site. I don't go to vegan sites and tell people to eat meat even though I believe it would be better for them.
        There are many vegan sites out there, I bet it would be easy for you to find one.


        I personally would suffer greatly as I have diagnosed medical issues that are corrected by very specifically avoiding the autoimmune reactions that I have from grains/gluten, and by NOT eating starches/high carb...
        Last edited by cori93437; 10-08-2012, 09:02 AM.
        “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
        ~Friedrich Nietzsche
        And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
          A lot of fruits and vegetables, soy foods (mix of tofu and stuff like tofurkey), beans, wheat stuff like tortillas, apple cider, bread and soy margarine. Rice, Indian food, ethnic foods that are vegan, pasta. Oatmeal with soy milk.

          It was a pretty varied diet, not a fully "junk food" vegan diet, not a full on whole foods only vegan diet.

          I think it is a small % of people who could be vegetarian or vegan and not eat the junk foods. I'm from the belief that all the research in the world is fine, but if people can't comply the diet is pointless. I did not know many vegans or vegetarians that ate a clean diet (ie, vegetables, whole grains, fruits and legumes). Most ate a good deal of processed (including myself)- because that clean diet isn't satisfying.

          Primal (and Paleo) to me, is the best combination of clean foods PLUS satisfaction which= compliance over a long term. I had short segments of time where I are clean vegan or vegetarian, but measured in weeks, not months. I see a lot of women vegetarians who are full on raging sugar addicts (like I once was).

          So I don't know, maybe the science proves that a vegan diet is best, but I have a feeling once you start looking at the processed foods, it's not much better than SAD. Given that most vegans eat the "fake foods" because it is such an unsatisfying way to eat, it's about impossible to practice.
          Hey, thanks for the reply. Appreciate you telling us how you found it etc.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
            Why are you trying to rope people into YOUR idea of healthful, when you know that's not what is considered the way to go at this site. I don't go to vegan sites and tell people to eat meat even though I believe it would be better for them.
            There are many vegan sites out there, I bet it would be easy to find one.
            Sorry, where am I telling anyone to do anything? I think you should read what is written, several times I have clearly said I am not saying it is better merely that the science backs it. I have also clearly said I eat meat and will continue.

            The whole point of this forum is to show other points of view. Seeing what others say, what the science is saying is an important way to make informed choices!

            Comment


            • #21
              @eenu not a single reference in the second McDougall post and I have read he some of his works that have been posted and they are beyond bad. So if you have something for him post it.

              As for the 1st link I have fond one bit of info on the Nurses Health Study - Trans fats are bad! Wow...like we all didn't know that. Guess what most trans fats came from processed vegetable oils.

              Then he mentions around the 3:35 mark that cholesterol guidelines may not be low enough even though there is increasing evidence that ratio not level is a better marker for for heart disease - face meet palm.

              Then at 6:30 he quotes a study of a single meal high in animal fat paralyzes your arteries. The meal you ask? A sausage and egg McMuffin - full of grains, sugar and processed vegetable oils - wtf!

              If you have a specific study you would like us to read please post it - life if too short to get that much misinformation plus blatantly obvious information so fast.

              Please post specific studies NOT youtube clips.
              Last edited by Dirlot; 10-08-2012, 09:27 AM.
              Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
              PS
              Don't forget to play!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                As for the 1st link I have fond one bit of info on the Nurses Health Study - Trans fats are bad! Wow...like we all didn't know that. Guess what most trans fats came from processed vegetable oils.

                Then he mentions around the 3:35 mark that cholesterol guidelines may not be low enough even though there is increasing evidence that ratio not level is a better marker for for heart disease - face meet palm.

                Then at 6:30 he quotes a study of a single meal high in animal fat paralyzes your arteries. The meal you ask? A sausage and egg McMuffin - full of grains, sugar and processed vegetable oils - wtf!

                If you have a specific study you would like us to read please post it - life if too short to get that much misinformation plus blatantly obvious information so fast.

                Please post specific studies NOT youtube clips.
                It will be a couple of days for me to post you some links as I am really busy at the moment, but I will certainly do that.

                The thing you failed to realise is he was presenting a talk to your average Joe Bloggs, not members of MDA forum that are probably more clued up than most. So, yeah, there might be some things that seem stupid to me and you but if you took the time to go through his site you will see the way he explains things for the lay person is superb.

                Here is a good example:

                Animalistic Plant Proteins | NutritionFacts.org

                Cited sources can be found below the video.

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                • #23
                  Durian Rider, is that you??
                  Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                    Durian Rider, is that you??
                    I presume your trying to insinuate I am someone else? If so, no I am not 'Durian Rider'.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      It does not matter who he is talking too what he has explained so far is misleading at best and more like outright misdirection and lies. If you take what he has said in the first 7 minutes is that vegetable based oils are bad, trans fats from vegetable oils are bad, grain and process foods fried in trans fat filled vegetable oils are bad. All of which I and everyone else here agrees with. A clean diet is the way to go but he has not made any point that confirms meat eating is bad.

                      The links below your latest video are all to abstracts and the third abstract states " These results suggest that dietary protein and soy isoflavones, in the context of comprehensive lifestyle changes, may not significantly alter IGF-1." So no real difference with regards to the type of protein intake and I would rather eat my grass fed hormone free beef than GMO soy.

                      TBH one of the biggest problems with meat eating is that mass farm meat eating is grain based, and full of antibiotics and hormones...prob a bigger factor than anything else out there.

                      Actual full studies would be much more productive.
                      Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                      PS
                      Don't forget to play!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                        It does not matter who he is talking too what he has explained so far is misleading at best and more like outright misdirection and lies. If you take what he has said in the first 7 minutes is that vegetable based oils are bad, trans fats from vegetable oils are bad, grain and process foods fried in trans fat filled vegetable oils are bad. All of which I and everyone else here agrees with. A clean diet is the way to go but he has not made any point that confirms meat eating is bad.

                        The links below your latest video are all to abstracts and the third abstract states " These results suggest that dietary protein and soy isoflavones, in the context of comprehensive lifestyle changes, may not significantly alter IGF-1." So no real difference with regards to the type of protein intake and I would rather eat my grass fed hormone free beef than GMO soy.

                        TBH one of the biggest problems with meat eating is that mass farm meat eating is grain based, and full of antibiotics and hormones...prob a bigger factor than anything else out there.

                        Actual full studies would be much more productive.
                        The reason you only get an abstract and I don't is I have access to all these journals, you have to pay. But the paper you quoted above also clearly states:

                        "The mean serum IGF-I concentration was 13% lower in 92 vegan women compared with 99 meat-eaters and 101 vegetarians (P
                        0.0006)"

                        "These data suggest that a plant based diet is associated with lower circulating levels of total IGF-I and higher levels of IGFBP-1 and IGFBP-2."

                        This study is also from two reputable research agencies and was a full study!

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                        • #27
                          lolololol

                          Veganism? Seriously? Any diet that REQUIRES that you take supplements or you'll get sick and possibly DIE is obviously unnatural. We don't have a fermentation chamber in our guts like a gorilla. And McDougall is an idiot. 12 pieces of bread or 4 cups of rice a day? Really?
                          Out of context quote for the day:

                          Clearly Gorbag is so awesome he should be cloned, reproducing in the normal manner would only dilute his awesomeness. - Urban Forager

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                          • #28
                            You are quoting the 1st article which notes the difference but does not state if there is any real effect from that difference

                            I am quoting the third which states it makes no difference when combined with lifestyle changes esp when you consider the meat sources were probably not as good as they could be.

                            When you combine the above with the blatant misinformation for the Forks Over Knives video I will take my chances with a clean diet (probably the biggest factor) and enjoy some wild bison, fish or grass fed beef.
                            Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                            PS
                            Don't forget to play!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I spent 7 or 8 years as a vegan.. a very careful, organic-only, balanced diet vegan. I followed raw veganism for awhile. I followed the "Engine 2 Diet".. I was very, very morbidly obese. My fibro was getting worse. My systemic inflammation markers were off the charts. I never slept, and my hormones were so f-d up, it was unbelievable.

                              Now, I'm down 60 lbs, and I can move again. My fibro is calm most of the time, my inflammation is drastically reduced, and I'm sleeping.

                              You can take your veganism and shove it, as far as I'm concerned.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Wildrose View Post
                                And McDougall is an idiot
                                Whether he is or not is irrelevant, he isn't being quoted the anthropologist is!

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