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  • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
    Odd that you of all people are claiming others here are neurotic and othorexic, Zach.
    Why?

    Comment


    • The funny thing is I likely won't even BE paleo for more than six months and that's IF I even decide to do it. And no dairy? Ha that's not what this site seems to advocate as explained earlier.
      I am open to EVEN Zachs way of eating. All I'm saying is we should be able to back up claims right? Seems fair to me.

      Comment


      • Some people just need something to rail against. If it's not there, they create it out of straw.

        Be well however you choose to eat.

        Comment


        • To be fair to Choco, what I have seen him advocate is not no-fat, high carb but more the idea that primal/paleo is not always about eating the fattiest cut of meat or full-fat whatever. He says it is okay to eat chicken breast or low fat yogurt, and he is correct. If one is counting calories one can eat more of lower fat foods. Will they have the same satiating affect? Perhaps, perhaps not, but I think much of that is n=1 and whether protein (even in low fat form) or fat is more satiating is something I have seen debated here. As for macros, if I remember correctly Choco suggests 40/30/30 (carb/fat/protein) for normal/average people. That is not outlandish, though obviously does not work for all especially those with neurological conditions or perhaps those with lots of weight to lose. Choco eats beef, he eats icecream, he has great pictures of cheesecake etc in his food journal - he is not afraid of fat. I just do not think he holds it to as high a level as many here do. The same goes for carbs - he is young, active, and tries to counter the lowcarb idea that some here have.

          In short, different ideas work for different people. Often bacon gets emphasized because after decades of "NO FAT ALLOWED!" the idea of bacon being okay is a huge selling point. That does not mean everyone eats it daily. Also, I think sometimes those who favor more carbs come across as carb pushers because "hey, a potato is okay," doesn't really get their point across. Eh, either way, eat what works for you and be happy. I intend to.

          Comment


          • Choco and I are two good examples of how inclusive Primal can be.

            He is there with his safe starches and fat free cottage cheese and skinless chicken.
            I am here mostly carnivorous and ketogenic.

            Neither of us eat pork. (So much for the myth that all Primal bow to the Bacon God daily)
            Both of us eat dairy. (So much for that myth.)

            We have very different diets. His works for a weight lifting young guy and mine works for a post menopausal woman with epilepsy. We are both Primal. There is lots of room under the Primal tent for variations, preferences, and experimentations.

            People who want to start a blog have to have a "hook", something that gets people's interest and gets them fired up. Matt stone's seems to be painting all of primal/paleo with a broad brush as a monolithic orthorexic bunch of food nazis and then ranting against that. Oh well, whatever gets hits on your blog I guess.

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            • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
              To be fair to Choco, what I have seen him advocate is not no-fat, high carb but more the idea that primal/paleo is not always about eating the fattiest cut of meat or full-fat whatever. He says it is okay to eat chicken breast or low fat yogurt, and he is correct. If one is counting calories one can eat more of lower fat foods. Will they have the same satiating affect? Perhaps, perhaps not, but I think much of that is n=1 and whether protein (even in low fat form) or fat is more satiating is something I have seen debated here. As for macros, if I remember correctly Choco suggests 40/30/30 (carb/fat/protein) for normal/average people. That is not outlandish, though obviously does not work for all especially those with neurological conditions or perhaps those with lots of weight to lose. Choco eats beef, he eats icecream, he has great pictures of cheesecake etc in his food journal - he is not afraid of fat. I just do not think he holds it to as high a level as many here do. The same goes for carbs - he is young, active, and tries to counter the lowcarb idea that some here have.

              In short, different ideas work for different people. Often bacon gets emphasized because after decades of "NO FAT ALLOWED!" the idea of bacon being okay is a huge selling point. That does not mean everyone eats it daily. Also, I think sometimes those who favor more carbs come across as carb pushers because "hey, a potato is okay," doesn't really get their point across. Eh, either way, eat what works for you and be happy. I intend to.
              I would not have been saying this if he had not told me in all seriousness that all the fat a person (ie, me) needs can be gotten from green vegetables, and therefore that is how much fat I should eat.

              I totally accept that there are people who do really well on mostly carbs for energy, as well as those who do well on mostly fat. There are also people who are able to effortlessly move from one to the other. while others can be stuck in the fat-burning or carb-burning mode.

              What I hate is people who make up statistics to support their claims and then get huffy when you ask for a citation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                I would not have been saying this if he had not told me in all seriousness that all the fat a person (ie, me) needs can be gotten from green vegetables, and therefore that is how much fat I should eat.
                Wow, I missed it when he said that. I stand corrected.

                Comment


                • So many straw men in this thread.

                  Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                  What I hate is people who make up statistics to support their claims and then get huffy when you ask for a citation.
                  90% of all statistics are made up.
                  Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                  Griff's cholesterol primer
                  5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                  Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                  TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                  bloodorchid is always right

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                    Wow, I missed it when he said that. I stand corrected.
                    Thats not what he said. He and i both said that is possible to get all your EFA's from green vegetables so maybe fat is not as essential to a healthy diet as is pushed around here. I dont think either of us would ever say that that is optimal.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      I didn't say he was ambiguous, I said he rambled and didn't write well. Perhaps it is generational. To me he comes across as a petulant kid saying, "I ate pizza and soda. Neener, neener, neener!" Yeah? So, what?

                      I really can see that, particularly from the pov of someone with a history of extreme dieting, EDs, weight swings, emotional eating, etc. there is merit in what Grumpycakes calls a healthy dose of Fuckitol. Someone to say, "Hey folks, lets's all just relax and eat."

                      Terrific. But that message is not something that I feel a need for. If I'm going to spend my time reading a blog I want to get some scientifically founded info from it, not just some guy's opinions. But if reading his opinions is helpful to someone else, cool.

                      It's all in what you're looking for.
                      I totally agree with you, and that's all I was saying from the start: With his anti-orthorexic stance, Matt is a breath of fresh air in the "diet world".

                      And I agree about his neener-neener attitude But I understand where he got it: likely he spent too much time on forums asking for advice and kept being told to "Paleo harder" when it clearly wasn't working for him. Even the low carb writers aren't not much use to people who low carb doesn't work for, cos' it is working for them. You're a good example of this: you look and feel amazing on a ketogenic diet, so why would you bother researching why some people have difficulties on low carb diets? (I don't mean that as an attack or insult btw).

                      Personally speaking, low carb was a disaster for me, but I didn't get much appropriate advice on the forums until Choco changed his stance, and Zach and Derp showed up. Things have changed on this forum since then, for sure. Even people who are doing great low carb (eg. Knifegill and Neck) now lace their advice with "This works for me but some people need more carbs". Anyway, I'm not surprised Matt's pissed off with the movement, but hopefully at some point he'll let it go.

                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      People who want to start a blog have to have a "hook", something that gets people's interest and gets them fired up. Matt stone's seems to be painting all of primal/paleo with a broad brush as a monolithic orthorexic bunch of food nazis and then ranting against that.
                      You're right: some people are zealots (a person in another thread actually said chewing gum would kill you eventually... :roll eyes but probably the majority are not. I don't agree with taking the piss out of another group for their beliefs because as soon as you take a superior attitude you're limiting your potential for learning.

                      Sadly most people do this to some extent (egs. Paleo people do it to Vegans, or "Peatatarians"). No one's perfect. Matt, Mark, Peat all have great insights, but the devil is in the dosage.

                      Originally posted by Nstocks View Post
                      I feel the same. Nobody really knows what the best approach to health is, everyone is kinda winging it here. Everyone is so different.
                      Totally agree - and so happy to see that you're feeling better!

                      Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                      This is not a paleo site. If you want to blame people here for what you've read on other sites, that's your issue.
                      Katherine, you bamboozle me
                      Last edited by YogaBare; 05-24-2013, 05:33 AM.
                      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                      - Ray Peat

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                        Um, Pat, you know I adore you but seriously ?l?! Primal is all about sleep, de-stressing, playing and meditating.

                        Lots of people here don't take any supplements, myself included and Mark even said in so many words at the last AHS that supps were not necessary for a healthy person eating optimally.

                        Yes, there are some hypochondriac headcases with serious ED problems around these boards, I suspect any health/fitness related site attracts its share of them, but that is not Primal. smh.

                        News flash. Not everyone who eats Primal lives on broccoli and bacon and never touches milk or fruit. In fact I never eat broccoli or bacon and often eat dairy and fruit.

                        There are a lot of ways to be Primal. IDK where this "cult of Primal" myth sprung up. Maybe on Matt's site. The same place one learns to insert an f bomb in every sentence perhaps?
                        Go to paleohacks.com once in a while and you'll see what I'm taking about. Complete nutcases. I wasn't specifically referring to this forum, although there are some crazies here. There is plenty of 'bacon-pushing' and 'MOAR FAT' elsewhere that isn't as prevalent here.

                        And no, the 'cult of primal' is certainly not something I picked up from Matt Stone. That is an observation from the many paleo groups on Facebook, paleo-oriented sites such as paleohacks.com and more.

                        Example: "Ditch the Wheat", a group on Facebook recently posted an infographic about how CARBS MAKE YOU FAT. Well, I called on their bullshit and said no, that's not always the case. I was told plainly by the group leader that 'carbs are the source of problems for most people'. I'm so glad this person knows most people and can speak for ALL of them! Shit son!

                        I know Mark Sisson and Chris Kresser both say supps are not a magical cure. But they both sell supplements! Mark even sells protein powder and O3 capsules! It's become big business and meanwhile, this was supposed to be about simplicity and balance. I don't see that anymore.

                        There is a certain level of fear-mongering: THIS is a toxin, are you eating TOO MUCH OF THIS, DID YOU KNOW...this isn't balance, simple or anything of the sort.

                        Chris Kresser, while I love him for the most part, has an article about how ultrasounds are bad news. You know what? My wife and I are expecting our first child. I saw this article months ago and thought of reading it, but went against my first instinct. Why? I was already a paranoid health nazi, and this would only further my brain meltdown. I know such articles are meant to be informative, but are they really? How is this any better than CW which has been damning saturated fat and instilling fear for decades?

                        This too, in many ways, is a community obsessed with our lives from a health and food perspective. Again, I'm NOT simply speaking of MDA.

                        I decided to take back my life: from MYSELF, and remove MYSELF from the many groups, forums and sites I used to visit. There is a level of arrogance and superiority that I no longer wished to be part of. This is not a religion.

                        Lastly: I'm not saying paleo/primal doesn't work. As we've all seen on this site, it does for many and I'm thrilled for those who've found success. I do hope it continues to be successful long-term, and my biggest hope is that if it *isn't* successful, people will be able to break out of their thinking and admit it isn't working, and TRY SOMETHING NEW. I was stubborn as hell for months and months and thought 'THIS IS THE ONLY WAY MOAR FAT NOM NOM'. But I finally had to let go and relax.

                        My family and wife thank me. And *I* thank me. Life is too short to be paranoid about every morsel one puts in ones mouth.

                        Robin, you know I love you. This isn't a personal blast, I swear. I'm just venting. You are one of the folks who's done so well eating primal+keto and I think that's fucking magnificent, especially with how it has seriously changed your epileptic status. It's incredible.
                        Last edited by patski; 05-24-2013, 07:41 AM.
                        A Post-Primal PrimalPat

                        Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

                        Comment


                        • Yeah, Patski, that's one of the reasons I don't bother with paleohacks. That site is bound to become a more and more exclusive echo chamber because it doesn't have someone like Mark at the center to bring some balance.

                          This is a classic (2008) article by Mark about carbs. It basically comes down to saying the optimal level depends on the person. He does firmly say that *grains* are not optimal but doesn't even rule them out with any orthorexic line in the sand.
                          Are There Any Good Carbs? | Mark&#039;s Daily Apple

                          If one blog wants to rail against a bunch of people sitting around talking to each other (e.g.paleohacks) that's pretty pointless don't you think? If that conversation is bunk, you can always find another on the net.

                          And YB, when Katherine said this "is not a paleo site", I expect she was drawing a distinction between Paleo and Primal, one which is important because it is all about relaxing the orthorexia and expanding the tent.

                          Comment


                          • Mark doesn't think good ol' white potatoes are worth eating. Are you serious!? Potatoes are loaded with potassium, vitamin B6, manganese, folate and even vitamin C!

                            I don't buy his carbohydrate curve, and I'm not crazy about eating 6+ servings of vegetables per day. That's just asking for digestive hell.

                            Anyway, I don't want to waste time discussing what I don't agree with about MDA. I like a lot of what Mark says. But I don't think his way is the only way.

                            And to answer the initial question of this thread: yes, I totally take what Matt Stone says seriously...because I've tried what he recommends and I actually feel GOOD.
                            A Post-Primal PrimalPat

                            Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by patski View Post
                              Mark doesn't think good ol' white potatoes are worth eating. Are you serious!? Potatoes are loaded with potassium, vitamin B6, manganese, folate and even vitamin C!

                              I don't buy his carbohydrate curve, and I'm not crazy about eating 6+ servings of vegetables per day. That's just asking for digestive hell.

                              Anyway, I don't want to waste time discussing what I don't agree with about MDA. I like a lot of what Mark says. But I don't think his way is the only way.

                              And to answer the initial question of this thread: yes, I totally take what Matt Stone says seriously...because I've tried what he recommends and I actually feel GOOD.
                              I rarely eat any vegetables. I don't think he ever said not to eat white potatoes, just pointed out the advantages of sweet potatoes particularly as some people have nightshade issues. It's all about individual needs and tastes. It's not that his is or isn't "The Way" it's that he takes an inclusive enough approach to let everybody, you, me, Choco, and even Zach find their own individual ways.

                              If Matt Stone wants to beat up on the strawman of paleo orthorexia and you enjoy reading that, cool. But that's not Mark he's talking about.

                              Matt's basic message is relax and eat. I think he and Mark would agree wholeheartedly on that.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Zach View Post
                                Thats not what he said. He and i both said that is possible to get all your EFA's from green vegetables so maybe fat is not as essential to a healthy diet as is pushed around here. I dont think either of us would ever say that that is optimal.

                                You need to be careful with polyunsaturated fats, both omega 3 & 6. EFAs have not been proven to be essential.

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