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  • #16
    I limit dairy to the top of the food pyramid. Organic Whole Milk (even raw milk) works for me. I have no discernable adverse reactions to limited consumption of dairy. I toss some organic cheese in some of my foods. Of course, there is always calcium supplements if that's your thing. I also eat smoked herring, kipper snacks, etc which is the whole fish (bones, etc.) which has calcium.

    Hope this helps.
    Re-Starting Paleo January 10, 2013

    SW - 185.4 lbs Janury 10, 2013
    CW- 179.8 lbs
    Goal- 168 lbs Full Performance Level PBF, 32" waist, lean...

    MY PALEO JOURNAL

    "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity."
    ~ Abraham Lincoln

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    • #17
      Dairy gives me acne. Grassfed, raw, cow, goat, whatever kind.

      Our need for calcium is really overrated. You can get plenty of calcium from eating whole oily fish like sardines and herring, and making bone broth. All the people I've known who were diagnosed with osteoporosis ate a ton of dairy. I think it's important to reduce the things that leach calcium from the bones.

      I also have an autoimmune disease, which is often closely linked with allergies to gluten and dairy proteins, so I avoid them.

      And yes, I really miss cream and cheese, but when I think about where milk comes from, it nauseates me to think of drinking/eating the milk of a lactating mother from another species - it honestly seems like the most perverse and unprimal thing, even though I totally understand why people do it, and the disgust factor still doesn't completely eliminate my cravings for it on occasion. On the other hand, I have no qualms about killing or butchering an animal, that makes total sense to me.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by jllundqu View Post
        I limit dairy to the top of the food pyramid. Organic Whole Milk (even raw milk) works for me. I have no discernable adverse reactions to limited consumption of dairy. I toss some organic cheese in some of my foods. Of course, there is always calcium supplements if that's your thing. I also eat smoked herring, kipper snacks, etc which is the whole fish (bones, etc.) which has calcium.

        Hope this helps.
        I did this for years but not since reading this:
        The Great Fish Oil Experiment

        Sardines are out of my diet for good.

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        • #19
          Recent studies indicate that the countries that have the highest intake of calcium also have the highest incidence of bone fractures. In addition, there is a higher incidence of heart disease, presumably due to calcification of the arteries. There will likely be revised recommendations on calcium supplementation coming out soon.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
            Recent studies indicate that the countries that have the highest intake of calcium also have the highest incidence of bone fractures. In addition, there is a higher incidence of heart disease, presumably due to calcification of the arteries. There will likely be revised recommendations on calcium supplementation coming out soon.
            Of course, that correlation doesn't necessarily mean that calcium leads to bone fractures. There are a number of factors that could be bearing upon osteopenia/osteoporosis and too much calcium surely isn't at the top of the list. For example, Dr. Art Ayers, among others, fingers systemic inflammation as one culprit among many and notes:

            Osteoporosis increase in our population has paralleled the increase in use of omega-6 vegetable oils, and the increase in chronic inflammation.
            Cooling Inflammation: osteoporosis

            Now, I'll bet you that many countries that have a high consumption of dairy products also have a high consumption of industrial seed oils. The U.S.? Northern European Nations? Australasia?


            The correlation of calcium:magnesium ratios with stroke and heart disease seems more plausible to me.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
              Recent studies indicate that the countries that have the highest intake of calcium also have the highest incidence of bone fractures. In addition, there is a higher incidence of heart disease, presumably due to calcification of the arteries. There will likely be revised recommendations on calcium supplementation coming out soon.
              Have heard for years and unfortunately it's gotta be more complicated than that & is likely related to other mineral imbalances; phosphate I bet has something to do with it. I didn't drink milk for 20 years and have dental damage as a result.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by fiercehunter View Post
                Have heard for years and unfortunately it's gotta be more complicated than that & is likely related to other mineral imbalances; phosphate I bet has something to do with it. I didn't drink milk for 20 years and have dental damage as a result.
                This is a response to the first of the two claims the parent post makes, I take it?

                I agree that it's a big jump to take that correlation and say that there's a cause and effect relationship there.

                However, it is noteworthy that the abundant dietary calcium did not stop the fractures. It may not cause the fractures, but it is not enough, on its own, to prevent them. But that it would is precisely what the conventional wisdom has been. The fact is, as I've heard several sources comment, how would calcium "know where to go"? You could, in fact, even have a situation where there's not as much calcium as there should be in bones (or perhaps teeth) and yet it's getting deposited in soft tissue.

                There's more than one component in bone anyway. You have a mineral matrix, but you've also got protein. (See, for example, Don Brothwell's Digging Up Bones.) If there were only the first, bone would just be too brittle. It's the protein that gives it the strength. No-one I think makes the point better than Dr. Rosedale (who really is very good on many topics) -- two part interview in total taking over an hour but well worth anyone's time:

                Ron Rosedale – Healthy Bones | Me and My Diabetes

                One of the best things you can do for bone is weight-bearing exercise.

                Dr. Cate Shanahan says that some individuals who don't do much exercise and who eat a high carbohydrate diet -- i.e., a pretty broad swathe of the population -- can end up with bone cells replaced by fat. Your body, being an intelligent system, figures if you don't exercise, that you don't need strong muscles and bones, and if you stuff carbohydrate that you do need to store energy (since famine is obviously coming). Hence you get programmed cell death and muscle and bone cells are replaced with fat cells. Poepel are actually storing fat in their bones -- against that long winter that, as Lights Out was always reminding us, these days never comes. What it that likely to do for your bone strength?

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                • #23
                  I'm not gonna stop drinking milk, ever.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by fiercehunter View Post
                    I'm not gonna stop drinking milk, ever.
                    So then why did you bother creating this post if you don't actually care about making informed decisions based on scientific research, logic, and common sense? No one is trying to talk you out of eating dairy; you asked. Seems you don't want answers unless they support to whatever you happen to be gung-ho about at the moment.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by fiercehunter View Post
                      I'm not gonna stop drinking milk, ever.
                      ;-)

                      From pedigree goats browsing on bushes growing on organic land watered by streams issuing from volcanic rock and with some extra goat cream stirred in, I trust.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                        So then why did you bother creating this post if you don't actually care about making informed decisions based on scientific research, logic, and common sense? No one is trying to talk you out of eating dairy; you asked. Seems you don't want answers unless they support to whatever you happen to be gung-ho about at the moment.
                        I didn't drink milk for 20 years based on all the mumbo jumbo out there that poses as "science":
                        The NOTMILK Homepage! (MILK is a bad-news substance!)

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