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  • #31
    Originally posted by PaleoLogicCheck View Post
    Ding, ding, ding....I think we have a ^^^winner^^^ my fellow groks.

    Anybody listening here...Bueller?? Bueller??
    I don't get it, is Ben Stein terrible at making logical conclusions?

    I grew up on absolute junk food and plenty of conventional red meat. When first tried to apply for my passport at age 24 they told me to come back with an adult because children under the age of 14 weren't allowed to apply for passports on their own. At 30 without a beard I would get mistaken for a high school student or if lucky a college undergrad.

    Better counterpoint: my brother with hemachromatosis (and a smoker) looks just as young for his age as I do. And he subsists on a diet of oreos and cocacola.
    "You can demonstrate the purpose and limits of human digestion with a simple experiment: eat a steak with some whole corn kernels, and see what comes out the other end. It won’t be the steak."
    -J.Stanton

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by ProtoAlex View Post
      I don't get it, is Ben Stein terrible at making logical conclusions?
      Hopefully we can at least both chuckle at this:

      Bueller, Bueller - YouTube

      The analogy is I (Ben Stein) keep asking for a response from somebody (Bueller / people on this board who agree with me on this topic) who's obviously not there.

      Originally posted by ProtoAlex View Post
      I grew up on absolute junk food and plenty of conventional red meat. When first tried to apply for my passport at age 24 they told me to come back with an adult because children under the age of 14 weren't allowed to apply for passports on their own. At 30 without a beard I would get mistaken for a high school student or if lucky a college undergrad.

      Better counterpoint: my brother with hemachromatosis (and a smoker) looks just as young for his age as I do. And he subsists on a diet of oreos and cocacola.
      Yeah, I agree, anecdotal evidence generally misleads. Usually because there are too many 'confounding factors' that haven't been properly screened out.

      But numerous studies of statistically 'large enough' sample sizes of a common health metric among geographically diverse populations of centenarians doesn't mislead. At least I don't think so.
      (1) I am 100% on-board with the primal exercise blue print. It reduces the problem of exercise down to its simplest form and provides a solution that can be used for a lifetime.

      (2) I'm not on-board with the primal diet blue print. In fact, I'm not on-board with any diet plan but a man can hope to find the right answer before it's too late.

      Comment


      • #33
        I smoked for about 14 years. I will freely admit to having a hedonistic streak. On the other hand, I've been eating tons of vegetables, garlic, olive oil and oily fish, and no red meat, for the past two decades. There are genetic factors at play on my father's side, but also some environmental ones that are down to my choices. I also enjoy art appreciation, creating art and play, all of which I believe keep me young.

        I am 41. My profile pic was taken a few weeks ago.
        F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by PaleoLogicCheck View Post
          Good questions, so I googled them, here's what I found:

          Do Primitive Peoples Really Live Longer? : Disease Proof
          And on paleo sites they tell you that inuit and massai live healther without any elevated risk for cancer, god i hate it that every fucking braindead retard may write something and it passes as facts.

          €: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives...h-protein.html
          wow what a great and informative page...

          €2: oh btw: "PaleoLogicCheck" is obviously trolling :/
          Last edited by Nekron; 05-03-2012, 03:30 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Nekron View Post
            And on paleo sites they tell you that inuit and massai live healther without any elevated risk for cancer, god i hate it that every fucking braindead retard may write something and it passes as facts.
            Exactly, who to believe? Just don't pull a Dick Cheney on us, who every time he said 'the facts of the matter are...' (which was frequently), was a dead give away he was lying or simply ignorant of the facts.

            Originally posted by Nekron View Post
            €: Low Carb / High Protein : Disease Proof
            wow what a great and informative page...
            I originally did a full 2-minute google search to turn up this page:
            Do Primitive Peoples Really Live Longer? : Disease Proof

            Seemed authoritative but I didn't cross-check it's references nor did I look at any other page on the site. That's real work. Is that too intellectually lazy for your tastes?

            So far, rather than doing any heavy lifting yourself (cross-checking references, finding other credible references that refute it) you've taken the easy way out and merely provided a link to another page from the same site that you know most here will find repelling. Impressive research.

            Originally posted by Nekron View Post
            €2: oh btw: "PaleoLogicCheck" is obviously trolling :/
            [/QUOTE]

            Wrong. I ate liver (uh, red meat) TODAY. I would like to eat steak, hamburgers, etc as frequently as possible. I love the stuff but I think I've learned that 'frequently' may be problematic. The only question I'm trying to get an answer too on this thread is how often can I eat the stuff?


            Simply standing by the statement that 'grok must have eaten lots of red meat', well that sounds overly simplistic to me. Put some numbers too it, with some credible 3rd party references that back them up, if don't want to be a troll yourself.
            (1) I am 100% on-board with the primal exercise blue print. It reduces the problem of exercise down to its simplest form and provides a solution that can be used for a lifetime.

            (2) I'm not on-board with the primal diet blue print. In fact, I'm not on-board with any diet plan but a man can hope to find the right answer before it's too late.

            Comment


            • #36
              One other general comment: I love the stuff that our Paleo sensei is doing on this site.

              The only issue I have at the moment is how much red meat to consume.
              I am not a vegetarian/vegan or anything like that.

              But, even though our sensei says 'eat plenty of red meat' doesn't mean we should.
              Does anybody remember this 80's movie reference:

              sweep the leg.jpg
              (1) I am 100% on-board with the primal exercise blue print. It reduces the problem of exercise down to its simplest form and provides a solution that can be used for a lifetime.

              (2) I'm not on-board with the primal diet blue print. In fact, I'm not on-board with any diet plan but a man can hope to find the right answer before it's too late.

              Comment


              • #37
                Well lets start with the premise, that the human body cant regulate iron uptake, which is simply wrong (Hepcidin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a hormone that basically regulates the absorption of iron that comes with food). This leads to the conclusion, that the healthy human body has a certain range in which it regulates the iron concentration.

                Next point: Its pretty easy to control the ranges of iron in the blood, because low levels result in anemia and very high levels arent reached by food in a healthy human being because of the mechanisms presented above.

                So if you limit your red meat intake, your body will get its iron from the plants or other meats, iron is in everything because everything needs it to live and you are going to take it in if you want it or not. Whats true is, that iron is prone to this whole "free radicals" stuff. And if you do this whole primal thing right (i.e. not only meat but vegetables/fruits as well) you are getting tons of good stuff that helps against said free radicals.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Nekron View Post
                  Well lets start with the premise, that the human body cant regulate iron uptake, which is simply wrong (Hepcidin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a hormone that basically regulates the absorption of iron that comes with food).
                  Thanks for the link and the thoughtful reply. I found this statement particularly interesting:

                  "The serial analyses of β-thalassemic mice indicate hemoglobin levels decreases over time, while the concentration of iron in the liver, spleen, and kidneys markedly increases. The overload of iron is associated with low levels of hepcidin."

                  Which clarifies something I posted above. Apparently hemoglobin level is not the right indicator to monitor for iron overload, hepcidin is. To show how 'new' this is, even the red cross doesn't screen for low hepcidin (yet) based on my recent visit to a blood drive.

                  Originally posted by Nekron View Post
                  This leads to the conclusion, that the healthy human body has a certain range in which it regulates the iron concentration.

                  Next point: Its pretty easy to control the ranges of iron in the blood, because low levels result in anemia and very high levels arent reached by food in a healthy human being because of the mechanisms presented above.
                  An 'anecdotal' but absolutely true story from my youth might help put this 'range' in perspective. When I was in elementary school (late 70s) several of the kids teeth in my class turned dark brown/black. Turns out they had been diagnosed with anemia and one of our good small town docs recommended their parents give them iron supplements (pills that taste like candy). Well they were given too much for too long and the side effect was their ruined teeth (which never got better, at least through the end of high school).

                  Clearly upping their dietary iron intake exceeded their young bodies ability to regulate iron concentration to a 'safe' level. Yes, this is an extreme case but perhaps, in terms of actual daily iron intake, not much more extreme than somebody who eats red meat every day.

                  Originally posted by Nekron View Post
                  So if you limit your red meat intake, your body will get its iron from the plants or other meats, iron is in everything because everything needs it to live and you are going to take it in if you want it or not.
                  Agreed.

                  Originally posted by Nekron View Post
                  Whats true is, that iron is prone to this whole "free radicals" stuff. And if you do this whole primal thing right (i.e. not only meat but vegetables/fruits as well) you are getting tons of good stuff that helps against said free radicals.
                  Great point. As I'm sure you know the 'good stuff' is called anti-oxidants. So, the issue you bring up here - which complicates the whole matter - is if there's an 'optimal' ratio between iron concentration and anti-oxidant levels. I'm sure there is but that means dietary guidelines become more complicated.

                  Most researchers agree that a primary mechanism behind cellular aging is oxidation. Thus, preventing oxidation at the cellular level is a big part of minimizing the rate of cellular aging. But that doesn't mean we should take extreme amounts of anti-oxidant supplements. Turns out oxidation (as facilitated by iron ions) has a beneficial role in the body as well - it plays a part in immunity. The body relies on oxidation as a means to attack pathogens. So, if the anti-oxidant-to-oxidant ratio is too high - it can't mount an effective immune response to pathogens.


                  One other philosophical point on iron metabolism. It's not 'neutral', i.e., it didn't evolve to maintain iron levels between 'safe' and 'dangerous'. It's 'biased' - it evolved to conserve iron levels, i.e. to hold onto iron. Why? Because it's an element and can't be synthesized by the body and is absolutely essential to survival. Therefore, in times of famine, those with good iron reserves survived.
                  (1) I am 100% on-board with the primal exercise blue print. It reduces the problem of exercise down to its simplest form and provides a solution that can be used for a lifetime.

                  (2) I'm not on-board with the primal diet blue print. In fact, I'm not on-board with any diet plan but a man can hope to find the right answer before it's too late.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    An excellent, open (free), 2012 research article summarizing the latest understanding of iron and aging:

                    IJMS | Free Full-Text | Impaired Iron Status in Aging Research

                    Interesting highlights:

                    * 'It has been widely documented that aging is associated with dyshomeostasis of iron metabolism and regulation in both rodents [13–25] (Table 1) and humans [26–32].'

                    * 'The elderly are more prone to becoming anemic [33–37], which adversely affects muscle strength [38], physical performance [39], cognition [40] and longevity [41]. In contrast, age-related iron overload is also increasingly being recognized as a public health concern [42–45].'

                    *'Their finding that caloric restriction markedly mitigated iron accumulation in multiple tissue systems of aged animals as well as our recent study [17] suggests that caloric restriction beneficially modulates iron dyshomeostasis.'

                    * 'Thus, the lack of a cellular iron export mechanism in post-mitotic tissues could be one of the essential factors contributing to iron accumulation in aging.'

                    * 'Although iron balance is tightly regulated at the site of absorption (duodenum) [72], rodent diets
                    with different iron levels may alter iron homeostasis across studies
                    .'

                    *'Dietary compounds that inhibit iron absorption (e.g., polyphenols in tea and coffee [124,125]) may offer alternative approaches to mitigate iron accumulation during the aging process. Future research is warranted to test dietary interventions.'
                    (1) I am 100% on-board with the primal exercise blue print. It reduces the problem of exercise down to its simplest form and provides a solution that can be used for a lifetime.

                    (2) I'm not on-board with the primal diet blue print. In fact, I'm not on-board with any diet plan but a man can hope to find the right answer before it's too late.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I didn't eat red meat for 2 decades, had so many physical and emotional problems. At this point in my life I want my meat.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by fiercehunter View Post
                        I didn't eat red meat for 2 decades, had so many physical and emotional problems. At this point in my life I want my meat.
                        I hear you, so do I.

                        Did you see this little bread crumb from my previous post?

                        Originally posted by PaleoLogicCheck View Post
                        *'Dietary compounds that inhibit iron absorption (e.g., polyphenols in tea and coffee [124,125]) may offer alternative approaches to mitigate iron accumulation during the aging process. Future research is warranted to test dietary interventions.'
                        Well, I used google to follow that bread crumb all the way back to the references [124,125]:

                        Iron absorption and phenolic compounds: importance of different phenolic structures. - Abstract - UK PubMed Central

                        http://journals.cambridge.org/downlo...b278dbfe6e39fd

                        I really like the concluding statement from the second paper:

                        "Polyphenol-containing beverages, however, do strongly inhibit Fe absorption in the single meal studies and, even though
                        this inhibition may be less pronounced when averaged over the many meals of a whole diet (Cook et al. 1991), it would
                        still seem wise to consider this property when giving dietary advice to individuals who are most susceptible to developing
                        Fe deficiency. On the other hand, the consumption of polyphenol-containing beverages, and in particular black tea with
                        meals, could be a useful strategy in reducing Fe absorption in patients with Fe overload disorders
                        (deAlareon et al.1979)."


                        Red wine works too, but not apparently not as well as tea and coffee:

                        "While both tea and coffee have been shown to strongly inhibit Fe absorption from both simple bread meals and more complex composite meals (Hallberg & Rossander, 1982; Morck et al. 1983), red wine had little influence on Fe absorption from a composite meal containing meat and vegetables (Hallberg & Rossander,1982).

                        I'm still enjoying the tea I drank with my steak tonight...lol. Obviously I'm a fan of this strategy even though it hasn't been worked completely through. In science the details are always important but the basic approach can always be refined as new information becomes available.
                        (1) I am 100% on-board with the primal exercise blue print. It reduces the problem of exercise down to its simplest form and provides a solution that can be used for a lifetime.

                        (2) I'm not on-board with the primal diet blue print. In fact, I'm not on-board with any diet plan but a man can hope to find the right answer before it's too late.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by PaleoLogicCheck View Post
                          I hear you, so do I.

                          Did you see this little bread crumb from my previous post?



                          Well, I used google to follow that bread crumb all the way back to the references [124,125]:

                          Iron absorption and phenolic compounds: importance of different phenolic structures. - Abstract - UK PubMed Central

                          http://journals.cambridge.org/downlo...b278dbfe6e39fd

                          I really like the concluding statement from the second paper:

                          "Polyphenol-containing beverages, however, do strongly inhibit Fe absorption in the single meal studies and, even though
                          this inhibition may be less pronounced when averaged over the many meals of a whole diet (Cook et al. 1991), it would
                          still seem wise to consider this property when giving dietary advice to individuals who are most susceptible to developing
                          Fe deficiency. On the other hand, the consumption of polyphenol-containing beverages, and in particular black tea with
                          meals, could be a useful strategy in reducing Fe absorption in patients with Fe overload disorders
                          (deAlareon et al.1979)."


                          Red wine works too, but not apparently not as well as tea and coffee:

                          "While both tea and coffee have been shown to strongly inhibit Fe absorption from both simple bread meals and more complex composite meals (Hallberg & Rossander, 1982; Morck et al. 1983), red wine had little influence on Fe absorption from a composite meal containing meat and vegetables (Hallberg & Rossander,1982).

                          I'm still enjoying the tea I drank with my steak tonight...lol. Obviously I'm a fan of this strategy even though it hasn't been worked completely through. In science the details are always important but the basic approach can always be refined as new information becomes available.
                          You might find this article interesting.

                          Increased Lean Red Meat Intake Does Not Elevate Markers of Oxidative Stress and Inflammation in Humans

                          It seems in a clinical setting unless your deranged genetically or metabolically your body can handle the iron fairly well. Epidemiology studies have time and again proven to lead people astray.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tom C View Post
                            You might find this article interesting.

                            Increased Lean Red Meat Intake Does Not Elevate Markers of Oxidative Stress and Inflammation in Humans

                            It seems in a clinical setting unless your deranged genetically or metabolically your body can handle the iron fairly well. Epidemiology studies have time and again proven to lead people astray.
                            I did find it interesting, thank you for sharing. At first I thought 'great, it's not an issue after all'! Then I re-read it and found it lacking. The authors themselves state some of the results contradict their own expectations. The study was done in 2006, or earlier, 'Manuscript received 24 August 2006. Initial review completed 24 September 2006.'

                            The main problem with this study is that it completely ignored hepcidin. As I've learned right here on this thread, hepcidin is the key bio-marker for iron and causes other known markers to behave differently than expected. It would be like a study on sugar that ignores insulin.

                            Here are some links on hepcidin:

                            Basic intro:
                            * Hepcidin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                            * Highlights:
                            * 'It was discovered in 2000, and appears to be the master regulator of iron homeostasis in humans and other mammals'
                            * 'The overload of iron is associated with low levels of hepcidin'
                            * 'Hepcidin functions to regulate iron transport across the gut mucosa, thereby preventing excess iron absorption and maintaining normal iron levels within the body.'

                            Advanced:
                            * Regulation of Iron Metabolism by Hepcidin - Annual Review of Nutrition, 26(1):323
                            * Highlights:
                            * 'Hepcidin controls plasma iron concentration and tissue distribution of iron by inhibiting intestinal iron absorption'
                            * 'Synthesis of hepcidin is homeostatically increased by iron loading and decreased by anemia and hypoxia.'
                            * 'Hepcidin is also elevated during infections and inflammation, causing a decrease in serum iron levels and contributing to the development of anemia of inflammation, probably as a host defense mechanism to limit the availability of iron to invading microorganisms.'
                            --> This explains one of the 'contradictory' results the 2006 paper reports. Most likely it just wasn't practical at that time to monitor hepcidin. Why?

                            Clinical Diagnosis:
                            * Hepcidin in Human Iron Disorders: Diagnostic Implications
                            * Highlights:
                            * Received for publication May 10, 2011; Accepted for publication July 20, 2011
                            * 'However, before hepcidin measurements can be used in routine clinical practice, efforts will be required to assess the relevance of hepcidin isoform measurements, to harmonize the different assays, to define clinical decision limits, and to increase assay availability for clinical laboratories. '

                            I would be very interested in seeing a similar study that includes hepcidin measurements.
                            (1) I am 100% on-board with the primal exercise blue print. It reduces the problem of exercise down to its simplest form and provides a solution that can be used for a lifetime.

                            (2) I'm not on-board with the primal diet blue print. In fact, I'm not on-board with any diet plan but a man can hope to find the right answer before it's too late.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Thanks for some more info its always going to be hard to prove something doesnt happen than it is to prove it does. The study has its strength and weaknesses as do all the others. I would be more inclined to base an opinion off this than epidemiology studies.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Had some bloodwork done for a few parameters. Mainly B12, Iron, Calcium, Magnesium and liver and kidney tests. Apart from not really knowing what they looked for in the blood test for the liver and kidney, the only thing that was red flagged was my iron level. Turns out it was above normal range and higher than normal.

                                Did not expect that, i was more worried about electrolyte imbalance which was promted by chest pains and weird sensations on my left upper chest where the heart is. I'm young, underweight and the tests suggested i'm not diabetic or anythign else to spark concerns apart from the iron. I'm due for another iron check in 2 weeks in which it will hopefully come down to closer normal range. I hope that it's my diet at play and not significant inflammation like my doc suggested. I do ingest red meat and fish most, with a whole chicken roast once a week. I have eaten 2 whole 85% lindt dark chocolate bars within the last 2 weeks of taking the test so i hope it's just excess iron and can lower with an imrpovised diet. Will try more fish and perhaps some chicken spread throughout the week. This thread was fairly interesting read.

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