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Debating with vegans, need help! :)

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  • #31
    I don't see how the farming/harvesting of animals is any less painful or destructive than farming/harvesting plants.

    I think it comes to, if we were to survive with the least impact on the environment, we would have to be hunter/ gatherers. We could not gather enough nuts/berries/plants to survive therefore we need to hunt and eat meat.

    To provide a vegan diet that sustains a person without meat requires farming and that will create habitat destruction and therefore suffering for wild animals. To provide a meat diet that does not require hunting also creates habitat destruction and therefore suffering for wild animals. It also creates some level of potential suffering of the meat animals who are raised in some level of confinement and slaughtered.

    Therefore, the diet creating the least overall suffering while still maintianing life would be a hunter/gatherer. The modern vegan diet does not closely resemble that of a gatherer and does create suffering for animals, taking their lives in exchange for the convenience and sustenance for our vegan.

    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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    • #32
      First tip: Don't debate with vegans. They're emotionally fragile from carb overload plus no animal fats.

      Although a perennial favorite with me is Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet ... I first discovered it when I was reading reviews of the China Study book (which is horrible, just horrible). She's pretty hilarious when she's layin' the scientific nutrition smackdowns.
      ~elaine. twitter, primal journal.


      Originally posted by vontrapp
      CoWorker: What? Cmon live a little.
      Me: No thanks, I'd rather live a lot.

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      • #33
        LOL... the AR people used to picket Procter and Gamble with signs like "Animals Died For Your Laundry" (died laid out to look like TIDE)... you could picket the healthfood store with "Animals DIED for your Tofurkey" and have little pics of field mice and foxes.

        But I do think that eating primal, unless you are hunting and gathering, is at least as impactful on the environment and animal suffering as being a vegan.

        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
          I don't see how the farming/harvesting of animals is any less painful or destructive than farming/harvesting plants.

          I think it comes to, if we were to survive with the least impact on the environment, we would have to be hunter/ gatherers. We could not gather enough nuts/berries/plants to survive therefore we need to hunt and eat meat.

          To provide a vegan diet that sustains a person without meat requires farming and that will create habitat destruction and therefore suffering for wild animals. To provide a meat diet that does not require hunting also creates habitat destruction and therefore suffering for wild animals. It also creates some level of potential suffering of the meat animals who are raised in some level of confinement and slaughtered.

          Therefore, the diet creating the least overall suffering while still maintianing life would be a hunter/gatherer. The modern vegan diet does not closely resemble that of a gatherer and does create suffering for animals, taking their lives in exchange for the convenience and sustenance for our vegan.

          I at least like that you can be perfectly reasonable in our back and forth discussion. Breath of fresh air.

          How is to say that the animals are not benefiting from husbandry. The species is assured survival and the a relatively stress free life. Since living seems to be primarily about ensuring the survival of the species wouldn't you say that cows have been successful in that regard. They have spread far and wide and are still alive where many other animals are extinct. Who is to say that is any different than the ant/aphid or human/wheat plant relationships.
          It is sad that the measuring stick of our progress is the speed by which we distance ourselves from the natural world. Even sadder is that we will only see this when there is no nature left to save.

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          • #35
            It's ludicrous to think our very existence doesn't have an impact on our environment. It's just a matter of how we want to manage it.

            Whatever we do - plant a field, pave a street, build a hospital, graze cattle - it's going to change our environment. I don't honestly see how planting mass quantities of soybeans makes life better for the animals in the surrounding environment.
            Durp.

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            • #36
              I at least like that you can be perfectly reasonable in our back and forth discussion. Breath of fresh air.
              Back when I was a vegan I would have thrown a vat of nutritional yeast "cheese" sauce at you and run off crying when you accused me of killing mice for my tofu.

              I'm not a vegan anymore, it's just an interesting argument.

              And umm,selective animal husbandry is not always good for the longevity of a species. Horses are a great example- breeding racehorses for the sole purpose of a fast horse at 3 years old has led to more fragile bones that shatter more easily.

              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

              Comment


              • #37
                For some reason i cannot yet articulate ( working on it), this thread strikes me as a perfectly rational argument for reducing the human population. the only clear thought is, if you must eat a vegan lifestyle there are too many people.

                People eat food
                Food is what eats grasses
                Grasses eat sunlight.
                People cannot eat sunlight
                People cannot survive without proteins
                Food ( animals) convert sugar to proteins
                People eat food.
                Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                Predator not Prey
                Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                CW 315 | SW 506
                Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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                • #38
                  <--- Former ethical vegan

                  Trust me, it's not worth the debate. They will staunchly stick to their guns regardless of any logical argument you present to them. In addition, not ALL of their arguments are bogus. It does take more agriculture to sustain a meat-eating population than a vegetarian population, modern farming practices CAN be horribly inhumane, and some do realize that a perfect utopia is impossible and thus take a "do the least amount of harm" stance.

                  Having been vegan, and now as a devout eater of meat, I can say this: It's better to live and let live, agree to disagree, and stay your own personal course.
                  Female, 40 yrs old, 5', 120 lbs (post-pregnancy)
                  Went Primal January 2, 2012!

                  Paleo Cooking for Cavekids cookbook

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jammies View Post
                    But one grass fed cow that is killed can feed me for six months. The pasture that the cow is raised in is a protected area where thousands of animals can live out their lives in nature. In contrast, hundreds of animals are killed to clear land for soy, wheat, and corn fields. Those lands are silent and destitute. Poisons and traps are required to keep rodents, birds, and bugs out of the stored food. I would argue that hunted meat and pastured farm animals are the most ethical way to live.

                    +100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000
                    " If you truly love nature you will find beauty everywhere"

                    - Vincent Van Gogh




                    Primal Since January 2011

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                    • #40
                      I do one of three things:

                      -Just don't argue and change the topic
                      -Point out their dry skin, matted hair, early on-set wrinkles, and the huge bags under their eyes
                      -Look at my watch and ask if they are going to be late for their all-natural Vitamin B12 injection.

                      Hope these help.

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                      • #41
                        The best way to argue with a vegan is to throw a log on them, and tell them to lift it off themselves, and then say "Come on use your grain, carrot fed muscles!"

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by jiigigaw View Post
                          -look at my watch and ask if they are going to be late for their all-natural vitamin b12 injection.

                          lol
                          " If you truly love nature you will find beauty everywhere"

                          - Vincent Van Gogh




                          Primal Since January 2011

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                            For some reason i cannot yet articulate ( working on it), this thread strikes me as a perfectly rational argument for reducing the human population. the only clear thought is, if you must eat a vegan lifestyle there are too many people.

                            People eat food
                            Food is what eats grasses
                            Grasses eat sunlight.
                            People cannot eat sunlight
                            People cannot survive without proteins
                            Food ( animals) convert sugar to proteins
                            People eat food.
                            Ishmael.org

                            Reason articulated!
                            The Champagne of Beards

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                            • #44
                              I am not known for patience and can't argue with vegans. Occasionally, I just state that carnivores have bigger brains and are smarter and walk away. BTW, I am not primal - I eat grains (not too much).

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by pernissila View Post
                                Hi!

                                I have a lot of trouble with what to say to vegetarians/vegans when they are showing of some research as if it's their own.

                                The latest is this: Eliminating the #1 Cause of Death | NutritionFacts.org
                                From what they say is the worlds leading heart-researcher saying that we are not built to eat meat.

                                What do I say to something like that? Is that research valid at all?
                                What do you mean by showing off some research as if it's their own? The source is quoted so you can read the research yourself and draw your own conclusions.
                                What you can do to debate what they are saying on that site is find another peer reviewed research disproving it. And then you can throw that at them and see what they got to say.

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