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Debating with vegans, need help! :)

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  • #16
    I think a lot depends on why a person is a vegan. If it is an animals rights issue, you won't win. Ever. If it is simple health- which I don't think there are a lot of committed vegans who do it simply for health- there is a lot to stand on, but their arguments about health will be a reflection of the SAD. When I was a veg, I would basically tell people who pushed it that I know at least two or three ranching families that raise animals to eat who won't eat McDonalds or grocery store meats. Probably if you told them that you stick to pastured organic meats and don't touch fast food either, you'd be singing kumbaya and sharing veggie recipes.

    I'm a little unfairly biased about Vegans just because so many I have known have been all purpose mean people and I hated being lumped with them. I tend to forget about the earth mama types, but they are not prone to argue.

    And most vegans cheat. My BF and I were vegans in college and I think we each thought the other was more committed. Turns out, he'd go home on weekends and have breyers ice cream and grandmas hashbrown casserole, while I was sneaking in a pizza when he was gone.

    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
      I think a lot depends on why a person is a vegan. If it is an animals rights issue, you won't win. Ever. If it is simple health- which I don't think there are a lot of committed vegans who do it simply for health- there is a lot to stand on, but their arguments about health will be a reflection of the SAD. When I was a veg, I would basically tell people who pushed it that I know at least two or three ranching families that raise animals to eat who won't eat McDonalds or grocery store meats. Probably if you told them that you stick to pastured organic meats and don't touch fast food either, you'd be singing kumbaya and sharing veggie recipes.

      I'm a little unfairly biased about Vegans just because so many I have known have been all purpose mean people and I hated being lumped with them. I tend to forget about the earth mama types, but they are not prone to argue.

      And most vegans cheat. My BF and I were vegans in college and I think we each thought the other was more committed. Turns out, he'd go home on weekends and have breyers ice cream and grandmas hashbrown casserole, while I was sneaking in a pizza when he was gone.
      The animal rights issue is actually the easiest if they are logical- however very few are.
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      • #18
        The point of animal rights is that we have no right to use them for any purpose, be it food, companionship or working. It's not about "protecting" them from predators. Basically the goal would be for no animal to be confined and to be let out to live the life of a feral animal. And ya know what- you could win that argument if you could prove that man was a natural predator of animals from which they should not be protected. And the raising and processing of animals in an environment in which they are placated is actual man using his mind to be the ultimate predator.

        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
          The point of animal rights is that we have no right to use them for any purpose, be it food, companionship or working. It's not about "protecting" them from predators. Basically the goal would be for no animal to be confined and to be let out to live the life of a feral animal. And ya know what- you could win that argument if you could prove that man was a natural predator of animals from which they should not be protected. And the raising and processing of animals in an environment in which they are placated is actual man using his mind to be the ultimate predator.
          Or if you can point out that "vegetarian foods" kill many more animals than meat consumption.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
            I'm a little unfairly biased about Vegans just because so many I have known have been all purpose mean people and I hated being lumped with them. I tend to forget about the earth mama types, but they are not prone to argue.
            lmaooo, I hated being lumped in with "those" vegans too!! i'd be like "well, I guess i'm a veg*n, but I don't like being in that category..." lol!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
              The point of animal rights is that we have no right to use them for any purpose, be it food, companionship or working. It's not about "protecting" them from predators. Basically the goal would be for no animal to be confined and to be let out to live the life of a feral animal. And ya know what- you could win that argument if you could prove that man was a natural predator of animals from which they should not be protected. And the raising and processing of animals in an environment in which they are placated is actual man using his mind to be the ultimate predator.
              But one grass fed cow that is killed can feed me for six months. The pasture that the cow is raised in is a protected area where thousands of animals can live out their lives in nature. In contrast, hundreds of animals are killed to clear land for soy, wheat, and corn fields. Those lands are silent and destitute. Poisons and traps are required to keep rodents, birds, and bugs out of the stored food. I would argue that hunted meat and pastured farm animals are the most ethical way to live.
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              • #22
                Originally posted by jammies View Post
                But one grass fed cow that is killed can feed me for six months. The pasture that the cow is raised in is a protected area where thousands of animals can live out their lives in nature. In contrast, hundreds of animals are killed to clear land for soy, wheat, and corn fields. Those lands are silent and destitute. Poisons and traps are required to keep rodents, birds, and bugs out of the stored food. I would argue that hunted meat and pastured farm animals are the most ethical way to live.
                This, basically.
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by jammies View Post
                  But one grass fed cow that is killed can feed me for six months. The pasture that the cow is raised in is a protected area where thousands of animals can live out their lives in nature. In contrast, hundreds of animals are killed to clear land for soy, wheat, and corn fields. Those lands are silent and destitute. Poisons and traps are required to keep rodents, birds, and bugs out of the stored food. I would argue that hunted meat and pastured farm animals are the most ethical way to live.
                  +10000000000

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                  • #24
                    Except you are not allowing the cow to be feral, and you bred the cow with the intention of eating it. Plus range fed cattle eat resources that could be eaten by feral horses and we still have to clear pastures for pastured cattle which means cutting down trees and seeding etc.

                    And... just because you are a vegan doesn't mean you eat processed soy. You may have a vegan who raises their own organic fruits, veggies and grains (ok, not likely) in their backyard. They have acheived a nearly irreproachable level of smug in their non-impact on the universe. But you can bitch about the waste of oil in their plastic shoes, unless of course they have handmade hemp shoes. Then you are probably arguing with my SO back in 1997 and he'll get off the animal rights if you bring up the legalization of marijuana. 100% Hemp Sandals, Hemp Clogs by EcoDragon

                    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                      Except you are not allowing the cow to be feral, and you bred the cow with the intention of eating it. Plus range fed cattle eat resources that could be eaten by feral horses and we still have to clear pastures for pastured cattle which means cutting down trees and seeding etc.

                      And... just because you are a vegan doesn't mean you eat processed soy. You may have a vegan who raises their own organic fruits, veggies and grains (ok, not likely) in their backyard. They have acheived a nearly irreproachable level of smug in their non-impact on the universe. But you can bitch about the waste of oil in their plastic shoes, unless of course they have handmade hemp shoes. Then you are probably arguing with my SO back in 1997 and he'll get off the animal rights if you bring up the legalization of marijuana. 100% Hemp Sandals, Hemp Clogs by EcoDragon
                      Of course growing those crops disrupted the ecosystem, you planted them to eat them, and it's established that plants can feel pain.
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                      • #26
                        As an single person that may work but since there has never been a successful vegan society, I think that person may eventually run into problems. Raising children on a vegan diet will be next to impossible over the long haul so the above example represents the best that we could do and actually have a self sustaining society.
                        It is sad that the measuring stick of our progress is the speed by which we distance ourselves from the natural world. Even sadder is that we will only see this when there is no nature left to save.

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                        • #27
                          Now our argument is getting into environmentalism.

                          I do believe that the final argument against meat eating is the process of animal husbandry being a violation of animal rights. It does seem that hunting would be impossible to argue against as the predator/prey relationship is natural.

                          http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                          Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                          • #28
                            Read "The Vegetarian Myth"!
                            Turnstone's world - not really a journal...


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                            • #29
                              Challenge them to go into nature and live off the land for a week, you do that same go with them.
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                                Now our argument is getting into environmentalism.

                                I do believe that the final argument against meat eating is the process of animal husbandry being a violation of animal rights. It does seem that hunting would be impossible to argue against as the predator/prey relationship is natural.
                                Farming is just as unnatural, and inflicts more pain on both animals and plants.
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