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  • Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
    Lewis - I mean the ones at conception and early first trimester development like the structural facial and other physical abnormalities that Weston Price discussed (face, cheeks, shoulders, pelvis, etc.).
    I see. I guess there's no need to attribute those to anything other than what Price did—lack of minerals and of fat-soluble vitamins in the diet.

    But perhaps other things could be playing into it, as well. Gut dysbiosis seems like pretty much a disaster all round—as well as probably being far more common than is generally realized. Apparently anyone diagnosed with coeliac disease, which is a pretty extreme example of a damaged gut, is now supposed to be automatically screened for osteoporosis:

    What People With Celiac Disease Need to Know About Osteoporosis

    I don't claim to know much about the subject but the more I find out the more my opinion of the medical profession goes down. I mean (a) they're not generally looking for or finding serious gut conditions like that and (b) they seem far too ready to hand out antibiotics (and without warning the patient to take a probiotic), which we know can kill off good bacteria. Again a disclaimer—who am I?—but I do sometimes wonder if antibiotics really help that often and there must be some doubt as to whether they don't almost always also do some harm. (And if they do, then that's a heritable harm, since you acquire your flora from your mother.)

    The GPs round here hand out levothyroxine without pausing for a second to try to find out why the patient has a hypothyroid condition. And do they tell them to be sure to take vitamin A, since they won't be able to convert beta-carotene efficiently, or to avoid goitrogens such as soy? No. Someone told me recently that she'd been prescribed statins for her "high cholesterol". She'd already been on one and the "side effects" (sc. some of the effects) were so severe, that she had to stop it. So now she's on another. Now I know for a fact that there's never been a study that indicates that lowering cholesterol's helpful for women at all. I didn't have the heart to ask her whether her doctor told her to take CoQ10, since statins deplete that, and it's kind of a vital nutrient. I'll bet not; but, heck, I'm not a doctor and it's not my business to go round giving amateur prescriptions. It'd only annoy people anyway.

    Maybe I'm getting jaded, but I'm starting to see the medical profession as part of the problem—and not only as regards outdated (and, let's be frank, never actually evidence-based) dietary advice. I think they mean well, but it's ten minutes in and out and "Next please", and look for something that removes symptoms. They evidently assume that the pharmaceutical companies are working for the common good, too. I think in an age when people can research things themselves on the Internet, the public is going to get more and more sceptical.

    Comment


    • 100% agree and
      (b) they seem far too ready to hand out antibiotics (and without warning the patient to take a probiotic), which we know can kill off good bacteria
      Whenever they prescribe me antibx, I say, "And I should take lots of yogurt, right?" and they agree emphatically - but never once have I had a physician suggest the yogurt himself. Same is often true with statins & CoQ10.

      As for antibx & heritable harm, you made me think of my own hx: tons of antibiotics -> gut dysbiosis -> sugar addiction -> gross dearth of nutrients -> all my children had severe ECC and either very underdeveloped middle third or very narrow palate or very recessed chin or some combination. Neither my husband nor I have any of these issues; we're both the oldest of parents who are the oldest or second oldest of more parents who were oldest or second oldest, so had a decent nutritional heritage. I didn't pass it to my own,though, b/c of the gut dysbiosis resulting from the antibiotics.

      So could antibiotics be part of the near universal lower third problem? Could be.
      5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
      Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
      Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
      Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
      ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

      Comment


      • Nice thread.
        I think they sell them at professional photo stores. You can make a mickey mouse one yourself with a piece of frosted plastic and some light.

        Comment


        • Lewis, I 100% agree with you in regards to modern medicine and doctors. I only see naturopaths and chiropractors these days, because quite frankly, they actually go to the root of my problems. It's quite amazing how much I've learnt, and how little my friends and family are willing to listen when I suggest something. I've given up, now I only talk when specifically asked.

          I've really enjoyed this thread and the talk about facial structures. I'm happy to see that my oldest, twin-boys, have very strong facial structure, shoulders and noses. My poor youngest though, is a different story. She has a long, narrow face and generally looks as if both me and the husband must have lacked something.

          Speaking of gut-flora: mine is bad. I was the 80s poster-child for penicillin and has struggled with thrush and excess candida ever since my teens. Not to mention bad sugar-cravings. I really need to make sure my kids are fed better than in the past.

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          • Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
            So could antibiotics be part of the near universal lower third problem? Could be.
            Did you hear Rob Wolf's podcast this week? He had a doctor on, William Davis, who says one of the reasons there are more health problems of various types around are advanced plant-breeding and now genetic-engineering. Specifically, it's the breeding of wheat that he believes to be a problem. Davis mentions the dwarfing that was done to get rid of the long stalk. That rung a bell—you may know that there are accounts of armies hiding in cornfields years ago. That tells you how tall the wheat would grow. I tried to find some images—let's remind ourselves of what we can no longer see. I just googled "russian front cornfield" and got this image:

            http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oIAhQMTG-d...photos-003.jpg

            I think the road's slightly raised, so that corn's not far off head-height (although it may be rye rather than wheat). Or look at Seurat's mower:



            In the old days they often used to use wheat straw for thatch; now it's all reed. It has to be.

            Anyway Davis seems to think that when they dwarfed it that caused a lot of other changes in the plant and made it more toxic. (At least that's what I understood him to be saying: I was a bit distracted while listening.)

            It was interesting to me, because I remembered attending a lecture at University when the dwarfing was mentioned some years ago now. I'm not sure the lecturer hadn't had something to do with it (likely, he was from Wye College). Anyway, if Davis is right, they were congratulating themselves too soon on that one.

            So anyway, there's another theory as to why the food supply has got worse over the past twenty to thirty years. Here's Dr. Davis's new book:

            Amazon.com: Wheat Belly: Lose the Wheat, Lose the Weight, and Find Your Path Back to Health (9781609611545): William Davis MD: Books

            Comment


            • Lewis... I think that's interesting... I was just on Dr Davis's blog earlier today... I remember going out to the family farm when I was little and the wheat my grandfather grew was almost as tall as him 5'10" but as I got bigger, his height stayed the same, but the wheat got smaller... what's interesting in all this my grandfather's brother - worked with the Uof Idaho - to figure out what wild grasses grew in ID back in the 1800s when Lewis and clark came through... and he's re-seeded heirloom grasses, and free-ranges his cattle and sheep on it.. he'll also cut the grasses to use in winter instead of hay. his cattle and sheep go to slaughter heaver that grain feed cattle/sheep its also interesting in that his cows - never molest the feed truck when it comes by in winter. (Its a funny thing but I've seen a heard of cattle flip over a little 1ton pickup b/c it was out of hay) I'm guess his heirloom grasses are more nutrient dense compared to tradition hay/alfalfa...
              The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
              What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

              Converted to PB November 2010
              SW 190lb
              Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
              25 Sep 2011 160lbs
              1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
              GW ~135lbs
              5'3"
              Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Shijin13 View Post
                ... what's interesting in all this my grandfather's brother - worked with the Uof Idaho - to figure out what wild grasses grew in ID back in the 1800s when Lewis and clark came through... and he's re-seeded heirloom grasses, and free-ranges his cattle and sheep on it.. he'll also cut the grasses to use in winter instead of hay. his cattle and sheep go to slaughter heaver that grain feed cattle/sheep its also interesting in that his cows - never molest the feed truck when it comes by in winter. (Its a funny thing but I've seen a heard of cattle flip over a little 1ton pickup b/c it was out of hay) I'm guess his heirloom grasses are more nutrient dense compared to tradition hay/alfalfa...
                That's so interesting. It's such a wonderful story, too, because there's so much you can learn around nutrition and farming and medicine that could be quite depressing—like we're all rushing headlong at a cliff. But that someone could take the trouble to find out which wild grasses grew somewhere and just try them!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                  That's so interesting. It's such a wonderful story, too, because there's so much you can learn around nutrition and farming and medicine that could be quite depressing—like we're all rushing headlong at a cliff. But that someone could take the trouble to find out which wild grasses grew somewhere and just try them!
                  Yeah.. He's been Named Idaho Grassman of the year for several years - after work w UofI the older generations recognize that while change is good, you've got to select the right type of change...
                  The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
                  What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

                  Converted to PB November 2010
                  SW 190lb
                  Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
                  25 Sep 2011 160lbs
                  1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
                  GW ~135lbs
                  5'3"
                  Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

                  My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

                  Comment


                  • Just saw this in another thread, about the 121-year old lady who eats a local diet of meat, vegetables and fruit. I thought her bone structure looked pretty fantastic, what do you think? World's Oldest Person Found Thriving in the Amazon : TreeHugger

                    Comment


                    • Quite something, isn't she? I wonder whether she has all her teeth still. I'm sure Weston Price have a begged her to be photographed with her mouth open, too!

                      I like "locally grown meats, fruits, and vegetables gathered in the forests around her home" and kind of wish they hadn't added to that "free of the extra salt, sugar, and preservatives so commonly found in foods around the world". The second comment can read like extra information, but many readers will probably take that as an "explanation" of why her diet is good and assume if they only buy packaged food that states it's "low salt" and "low sugar" and "free from preservatives" they'll be good to go. While we don't want those extra things, the truth, of course, is that the sheer quality (and freshness) of what she does eat is probably far in excess of what it's easy to obtain back in civilization.

                      Comment


                      • I'm noticing her almost complete lack of wrinkles, except around her mouth. Smoother than many 50 year olds I know! Probably a life in the sun, at that - I'm currently leaning toward the theory that wrinkles are a result of skin that loses its nature due to excess omega 6's, and if sun plays a role, it's only if the skin is already damaged in that way.

                        Thx for the pic, awesome!
                        5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
                        Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
                        Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
                        Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
                        ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

                        Comment


                        • Wow, 121 years old! I think I have some good genes (my nanna is 95, her sister is 98 and both are still in great health, pop is 90 this year and his doc tells him "if something kills you in the next 10 years, it won't be old age," my other grandma is 87) but 121 is something else.

                          I am always thankful that my mother is super-wary of antibiotics. She worries about their overuse creating super bugs (she was a nurse), so we never, ever took them... if we got sick, we got better in time. I think I've taken one course of antibiotics in my entire life. I know so many people who've had real problems with chronic use of antibiotics... I did take birth control for years, which is less than ideal, but at least I missed the antibiotic thing!

                          Comment


                          • i thought about this thread when we were watching that old James Bond Sean Connery movie Thunderball the other nite -- the girls all had really wide hips & narrow waists. I had always thought that maybe it was out of the ordinary, that maybe it was all done with corsets.

                            Because no matter how much weight i lose & i really don't think i could lose much more at 5'4", sub 120lb, i'm never gonna look like that. Because of genetics or worn out dna or whatever, i've got narrow hips.

                            is the bettie page/60's ideal just a freakish thing or was that how all ladies used to look (my skinny hipped mother excepted, of course!)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Catherine View Post
                              i thought about this thread when we were watching that old James Bond Sean Connery movie Thunderball the other nite -- the girls all had really wide hips & narrow waists. I had always thought that maybe it was out of the ordinary, that maybe it was all done with corsets.
                              I guess that's a complex thing, because you're noticing the size of the hips relative to the waist in the Bond movie. It's also an area where fat tends to be deposited in women, so it's not merely the bones in question.

                              According to the physical anthropologists, there's variation between populations:

                              A. The extreme linear stereotype would be found in the previously
                              mentioned tall peoples of East Central Africa. These people are very tall and slender. The chests, shoulders, and hips are very narrow - the narrowest in the world for their height. The limbs are extremely long, especially the legs.

                              B. The extreme lateral stereotype would be found in some Asian and
                              Native Americans. Eskimos, Japanese, Samoans, Apache, and many South American Indians exhibit lateral build. A few Caucasoid groups also approach lateral build, especially the peoples of northern Europe. Laterally built people tend to have long and broad trunks, with wider chests, shoulders and hips. The widest hips of all can be found in Europeans. The limb bones tend to be short and the legs make less of a contribution to overall height.

                              C. Allen's rule. One primary selective force acting on body build
                              is Allen's rule:
                              Animals living in colder climates should have shorter appendages
                              and be more spherical than those living in warmer climates. This says that laterally built people should be found in colder climates and linearly built people in warm climates. This is true for humans on the average. The traditional comparison is between the Inuit and the Masai. The Inuit of the far north tend to be stocky with short arms and legs. The Masai of east africa tend to be very tall and slender, with long arms and legs.
                              Lecture - Human Morphological Variation

                              If you've seen the old movie of Stewart Grainger as Allan Quartermain, you'll recall he's shorter but looks more muscular than some of the very tall tribesmen (probably Maasai: they look like them and some of the filming was in Kenya) used as extras in the film. It's striking just how long and thin their arms and legs are.

                              So, yeah, hip-width tends to go along with cold climates. Note also:

                              Higher Rates of C-Section Deliveries For Asian Mothers & White Fathers Anthropology.net

                              You'd need accurate statistics on a population over time to see if pelvic width was being affected by the food supply (or other environmental factors). I don't know if those are available.

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                              • This thread makes me feel a lot better about my square face compared to a lot of the more oval dainty Asian faces I'm friends with XD
                                My chocolatey Primal journey

                                Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

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