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  • geekgrrl, check out some Weston Price (the source himself, not just filtered through WAPF or PPNF) and let me know what you think then. There are *no* traditional human faces around here in white Americans, celebrity or not. There are some that are closer than others in the 30+ crowd, but I can't remember the last time I saw a white American (who is not an immigrant or child of immigrant) < 30 without a noticeable structural problem, beyond just braces. I include my own children in that category.

    As mentioned above, Henry Cahill has the same issues, and Zak Efron has nearly the same as Cahill's. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but maybe it has something to do with the features being feminized. It would be interesting to take those male and female beauty masks that were on some art professor's website and see how they line up. Efron's body is obviously fine, but a quick google search on images and it's hard to find a face pic where the deficiencies aren't glaringly obvious.

    Way beyond PCB - how about rivers of synthetic estrogens excreted into our water supply from hormonal BC every day, not to mention the soy formula and oceans of soy that go into the processed food that are the staples of young Americans?

    What if the androgynous look is popular b/c there is little other choice? Now, it could be that it's all a conspiracy to get Americans to stop valuing the traditional male look.

    I was about to give y'all Chris Hemsworth (28), till I saw that he's not American, either, lol. Nice teeth.
    Last edited by MamaGrok; 08-05-2011, 05:09 AM.
    5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
    Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
    Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
    Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
    ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

    Comment


    • Sam Worthington (Australian, somewhere in his early 30's, gives me an excuse to post pictures of eye candy):


      His face starts out broad but I suppose it narrows quite a bit towards the bottom. Still a very strong chin though.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
        Wow, the Swedish King has an amazing face. Looks like he died young? And Henry VII certainly has a broad head, if his neck looks a bit thin to hold it!

        Cromwell looks a bit twisty to me, though - but could be the death mask. It's hard to tell from portraits b/c they're all 3/4 profile. In some younger ones, his head looks quite narrow, in some older ones it looks broader, but that could be from gaining weight. Hard to tell.
        Did you check out the page at Princeton University with lots more of these deathmasks?

        Laurence Hutton Collection of Life and Death Masks

        Click A to C, for example.

        I thought it quite interesting. Most of these are 18th or 19th century, and it looks a bit mixed to me.

        Audobon (1785 to 1851) has a broad nose and a fairly wide jaw, but a chap called Laurence Barrett (1838 to 1891) right next to him has a pinched nose and is tapered in around the chin.

        Charles XII of Sweden (1682 to 1718) turns up there again—this time seen from the front rather than in profile. An extraordinary face. It actually looks puffy from this angle, so maybe he was overweight. Strong cheekbones.

        Cromwell turns up again. Seen from this angle, I'd say it confirms he had a wide jaw. His nose is twisted: I expect it had been broken at some point.

        Under D to K, how about Benjamin Franklin? Keats' face looks a bit weak. It's interesting to recollect that he was a consumptive.

        And don't miss Sir Isaac Newton. Robespierre interesting, too.

        I've probably tended to notice some faces/noses that have naturally broad shapes there. You can obviously have a longer, leaner sort of face/nose–like Henry VII—and still have all your natural width.

        I'm thinking of Francis Pottenger's cats again. As I understand it, it took four generations of bad feeding to get about as far as physical degeneration would go in the cats (after that the cats were so mucked up that they were mostly infertile—ring any bells?—so there were no more generations, anyway). Now, I believe it took four generations to get back to a perfect physical state, too.

        But maybe it would be different in humans. Sally Fallon has said that all of her five children have straight teeth with full eruption of the molars and no need for braces or teeth extraction to "make room". Maybe all it takes is a nutrient dense diet for the child, for his or her mother during pregnancy—and probably for both parents before conception.

        As you mention elsewhere in this thread, Price thought an abundant supply of fat-soluble vitamins was important. He also mentions spacing of children—to allow the mother to recover biologically. And he specifically says that a good supply of minerals is important.

        The normal adult needs to receive from the foods eaten one-half to one gram of calcium or lime per day. Few people receive more than one-half of the minerals present in the food. The requirements of phosphorus are approximately twice this amount. ...

        In other words the foods of the native Eskimos contained 5.4 times as much calcium as the displacing foods of the white man, five times as much phosphorus, 1.5 times as much iron, 7.9 times as much magnesium, 1.8 times as much copper, 49.0 times as much iodine, and at least ten times that number of fat-soluble vitamins. ...

        The native diet of the New Zealand Maori provided an increase in the native foods over the displacing foods of the modernized whites of 6.2 fold for calcium, 6.9 fold for phosphorus, 23.4 fold for magnesium, 58.3 fold for iron; and the fatsoluble activators were increased at least ten fold. ...
        Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: Chapter 15

        Price was concerned about mineral depletion from soil–even back in those days. He was also concerned that children might get minerals in forms in which they couldn't utlize them anyway:

        Even though calcium is present in spinach children cannot utilize it. Data have been published showing that children absorb very little of the calcium or phosphorus in spinach before six years of age.
        I'm remembering that among primitive people children are sometimes breast-fed until as old as three. I guess that good-quality raw goat, sheep, or cow dairy from grass-fed animals could replace that—if tolerated by the child. It's not so easy to get hold of that these days, though. Maybe regular consumption of bone-broth would supply enough minerals—I don't know. French children often used to be given soup for breakfast.

        Anyway, here's the chapter comments above come from:

        Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: Chapter 15
        Last edited by Lewis; 08-04-2011, 10:39 PM.

        Comment


        • Actually, here is sir Isaac Newton. That's a face with gravity. :-)

          Comment


          • Slightly off topic, as it's not an old photo, but it reminded me of that classic black & white shot of the 3 solid looking Australian Aboriginal men.

            A western photographer shaking hands with the chief of a Papua New Guinean hill tribe.
            If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

            Originally posted by tfarny
            If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

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            • MamaGrok, You mentioned that you are now able to breath through your nose at night since eating primally.

              I myself have trouble breathing through my nose at an stage of the day. How did eating primally allow the nose breathing for you?... i mean, has it allowed some sort of slight change in bone structure, or has it cleared up some nasal membrane infection (fungal), etc ?

              I have a poor facial structure I think, basically a small head overall (especially for a 6'2" guy), ...Ive had to have bracers so I think my nose breathing obstructions are sourced from a poor facial development.

              --

              Has anyone got experience with Craniosacral therapy?... basically bodywork of the cranium

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              • This is a really fascinating thread. I (born in the former Yugoslavia, 1985) never paid much attention to my face or head shape, except to get frustrated whenever shopping for hats, headbands and other accessories in North America - everything is invariably too small for what is apparently my huge cranium. A few years ago I was in France on a crowded terrace and these two women who were sitting next to me started chatting about my appearance, figuring I didn't understand French (they were wrong). The one was saying to the other that she can tell I'm "Yugoslavian" because my eyes were wide apart and I had a prominent forehead and cheekbones. From that day on I began slightly obsessing about my big giant head and wide-apart eyes but now yay for that not being a bad thing! Growing up on lard = win.

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                • Worthington (35) looks great! English-born Aussie.

                  I'm not exactly sure when factory food processing began, but I know I was surprised to find out that Sherman burned several well-established, large clothing factories in Roswell, GA, so those, at least, had been established for several decades at that point. I'm not sure when factory refining (and thus, much less expensive, and much more widely available amounts) of flour & sugar began, but that would have been when it first began to affect human health widely. It certainly affected some earlier; Benjamin Franklin is known both for his love of bread & his stout waist. But not enough to affect structures of children, it seems, until it was so widely available that it could begin to displace other important foods.

                  There are some portraits of Barrett online. It seems he was an actor, and his nose doesn't look *as* pinched in those pictures, but it does look a lot like my fathers, which is very deep (front to back) and narrow and is certainly part of the problem with my own nose, and his lower jaw looks narrowed. (But in the death mask, his cheekbones look rather strong and broad.) Interesting, b/c the rest really have amazingly excellent noses - well, except Aaron Burr's looks broken!

                  What a face John Calhoun had!
                  Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                  Audobon (1785 to 1851) Under D to K, how about Benjamin Franklin? Keats' face looks a bit weak. It's interesting to recollect that he was a consumptive.
                  I recall Price noting the near universal correlation between facial structure and being susceptible to tuberculosis.
                  Sally Fallon has said that all of her five children have straight teeth with full eruption of the molars and no need for braces or teeth extraction to "make room". Maybe all it takes is a nutrient dense diet for the child, for his or her mother during pregnancy—and probably for both parents before conception.
                  That would be hopeful! But it could also mean that they were genetically predisposed to have some other problem instead of teeth. Like allergies or something else. I'm going to pin my hopes to the former idea and keep an eye out to see if there's anything to support or disprove it.

                  I know she was unable to breastfeed, which implies something possibly deficient in her own nutritional status, but perhaps it could be more from her own nutritional inheritance, rather than her recent nutrient consumption.


                  His chapter on mineral depletion in the soil (and its correlation with lowering intellect and all manner of things) is startling, isn't it?

                  Think of all the vegetarians who think their children are getting all the Ca they need from green smoothies!

                  I'm remembering that among primitive people children are sometimes breast-fed until as old as three.
                  LOL, you betcha. That's actually one of the very few primitive norms that have already begun to be rediscovered in the US. My five weaned between 2.5 & 3.5. There's actually quite a growing number of families practicing "extended" bf'ing now. The AAP has raised its rec's to "up to two years and as long thereafter as mutually desired" and the WHO has recommended a two year *minimum*, IIRC.

                  Bone broth is crucial for minerals, but I don't think we can get enough without soil replenishment. This is even a problem with organic food. The numbers on Mg that you gave are shocking.
                  5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
                  Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
                  Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
                  Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
                  ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                    Did you check out the page at Princeton University with lots more of these deathmasks?
                    Really interesting Lewiss, thanks for posting. I'm going to waste a lot of time looking at death masks.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ozbuckley View Post

                      Has anyone got experience with Craniosacral therapy?... basically bodywork of the cranium
                      yup... pretty neat - mostly dd had the work done - b/c of a lack of a suck/swallow reflux when born and the fact her jaw didn't release after delivery. btwn chriopratic and craino sacral work - it finally released around 2mths. I tried it as an alternative for migraines... I felt great after words - but at $90/session I couldn't afford it.... dd's treatment was covered by insurance...
                      The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
                      What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

                      Converted to PB November 2010
                      SW 190lb
                      Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
                      25 Sep 2011 160lbs
                      1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
                      GW ~135lbs
                      5'3"
                      Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

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                      • Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
                        LOL, you betcha. That's actually one of the very few primitive norms that have already begun to be rediscovered in the US. My five weaned between 2.5 & 3.5. There's actually quite a growing number of families practicing "extended" bf'ing now. The AAP has raised its rec's to "up to two years and as long thereafter as mutually desired" and the WHO has recommended a two year *minimum*, IIRC.

                        .
                        Exteneded bfing w/ds right now... granted hes' only 16mths...but he's showing no sign of slowing down...and I'm not inclined to wean. Yes some would call me selfish - but since dd couldn't/wouldn't nurse and I had to ep for her until my milk dried up at 14mths.... I'm going to milk this for all its worth.... what's interesting is some times dd will sit down w/me and ask to nurse - she's not quite sure how to make it work -but she tries - then gives up... it's a skill she's never had - even with me trying to explain how it works...
                        The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
                        What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

                        Converted to PB November 2010
                        SW 190lb
                        Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
                        25 Sep 2011 160lbs
                        1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
                        GW ~135lbs
                        5'3"
                        Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

                        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

                        Comment


                        • Does breastfeeding help the child wrt nutrition regardless of the mother's own nutritional state/deficiencies?

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                          • Bfing is really the only nutrition a baby needs the first 2yrs - all foods are for experimentation and socialization the mama's body will steal nutrients from her own stores/food supplies to nourish the baby - ideally the mama will not be deficient - so while she's nourishing her baby she's also restoring her body's stores in preparation of the next pregnancy in 3-5yrs....
                            The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
                            What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

                            Converted to PB November 2010
                            SW 190lb
                            Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
                            25 Sep 2011 160lbs
                            1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
                            GW ~135lbs
                            5'3"
                            Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

                            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

                            Comment


                            • Does breastfeeding help the child wrt nutrition regardless of the mother's own nutritional state/deficiencies?
                              That's debatable. The breastfeeding community has long said that breast is best, but there is certainly a spectrum. My children's tooth decay started when they were still on 90% breastmilk, and in fact, the older three's decay stopped when I changed our diet when they were 8, 5, & 2 - but the youngest one's teeth continued to decay to the point of the front teeth being only nubs at the gumline and the molars having ravines so deep I was afraid they'd just break off. His decay stopped the day he weaned.

                              At that time, I was feeding the kids 100% WAPF and myself 40% WAPF and 60% sugar crap b/c I was addicted and couldn't stop. YES, I believe strongly that the nutrient content of breastmilk varies with the diet of the mother. I wouldn't bother paying for milk from a cow eating 40% grass and 60% Twix, so why did I believe so long that my diet only affected *me*? (It was, of course, the bf'ing community's dictum that nutrients go to the milk first, then the mother - but what happens when the mother doesn't even have enough fat-soluble vitamins to fill the needs of the milk?)

                              The question is only, where on the scale of breastmilk quality does formula fall? No doubt a primal fed mother produces breastmilk superior to any other alternative. I would imagine that commercial formula is worse than breastmilk of any quality, even from a starving mother eating cakes made of dirt & Crisco (yes, sadly, that is a reality in some parts of the world) - but I'm not certain about that. And if you're talking about a homemade formula from the WAPF recipe, from raw grassfed cow's milk, pastured liver, etc. - well, I don't know where that would fall on the spectrum. Worse than the dirt cake mother's milk? I have a hard time believing that.

                              Even though I think the combination of "extended breastfeeding with very few solids" and "nutrient-poor mother's diet" leads to caries, if nothing else, I firmly assert, to my pediatric dentists' chagrin, that the solution is to fix the mother's diet, not to stop the breastfeeding.
                              Last edited by MamaGrok; 08-05-2011, 07:09 AM.
                              5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
                              Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
                              Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
                              Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
                              ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

                              Comment


                              • Google 'Renaissance Portraits'. I think you'll find that narrow faces and noses are part of a general line of European features. Broad faces belong to African and Oceanic peoples.

                                Fayum mummy portraits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                                Roman Portrait Sculptures: Caesar to Augustus
                                Look at the face of Julius Caesar and Augustus.

                                Sure, those broad islander faces look healthy and strong but europeans have been breeding narrow faces for centuries, well no doubt connected with their early adoption of agriculture, but I don't think you can say it's a generational thing. Maybe it's gotten worse in the last generation but not by much.
                                If we’re not supposed to eat animals, how come they’re made out of meat? Tom Snyder

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