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  • Vitamin D: more factors to consider

    This article certainly provides some food for thought and mentions a few things not usually addressed such as the role of K2 in relation to D.
    I don't have a personal opinion on this info (other than that D is very important and we can't assume being in the sun gives us enough unless we've been tested).
    Enjoy!
    http://thehealthyskeptic.org/the-rol...roid-disorders
    http://www.prettyinprimal.blogspot.com

  • #2
    I am so sick of this guy misrepresenting, either accidentally or purposefully, the available data.

    Oh that my day contained unlimited time to pick apart the crappy parts of his arguments though he's absolutely right that K2 and A play important roles.
    Last edited by cillakat; 08-04-2010, 04:45 PM.



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    • #3
      I'd love to hear your input, when you have the time!
      http://www.prettyinprimal.blogspot.com

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      • #4
        A lot of folks, both patients and medical professionals, have lived through the announcements of lots of miracle substances and nutrients that were supposed to transform health. Since few of these miracle substances have lived up to the claims when examined in the long term, or have turned out to have serious negative side effects, some cautious skepticism is in order.

        It is interesting, though, that few of the failed "miracle substances" of the past would have survived initial scrutiny if viewed through what I'll call the "Paleo lens", i.e. scrutinized with regard to how they would have fit and functioned in human evolution and why they should work now when viewed through that lens.

        It does not seem that in real human life, there are many "miracle substances." Though lots of people would like to sell us some.

        Most real miracle substances turn out to have two qualifications: (1) the substance is a nutrient and modern humans are truly deficient in that nutrient; and (2) the substance is something that early man in East Africa or early evolving hunter-gatherers would have ingested or obtained in adequate amounts.

        Magnesium meets these requirements. Modern man reportedly only obtains 45% of the minimum requirement from a Standard American Diet and Paleo man was estimated to have an intake of about 250% of the minimum. Modern conditions, stress, drugs, disorders cause magnesium levels to plummet and serum testing is all but useless to detect deficiency. So bringing intracellular levels of magnesium up to where they should be through supplementation with high quality and well absorbed supplements can produce results that seem miraculous.

        Much of the same is true with supplementation with Omega 3 from animal sources.

        Vitamin D passes the same two tests and seems primed along with magnesium and Omega 3 to assume the role of a truly important thing to get enough of.

        There are some old and questionable studies raising concerns, which are mentioned in the article posted by hazyjane. Dr. John Cannell speaks to those articles on the Vitamin D Council site:

        http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/worst_science.shtml

        As time goes on, we'll learn more in this debate. And thank you, hazyjane, from drawing our attention to possible negatives as well as positives. If D is as good as its proponents claim it is, it will ultimately survive the scrutiny. It may be that over time we will learn that sunlight produced D is superior in several ways to supplemented D, or that other similar products are produced by sunlight that aren't yet in supplements. We're learning about things like K2. And Dr. Cannell goes to some lengths on the importance of magnesium with Vitamin D.

        Most of the negatives attributed to D have related to excess calcium levels in the blood. I suspect that K2 and especially magnesium would minimize such issues. But we need to follow this, all of it, and not just the D cheerleading squad, as things unfold. Meanwhile, I think just about everyone including the author of hazjane's link agrees that deficient D levels are the norm and they need to be brought up.
        Last edited by Paleo Man; 08-05-2010, 09:04 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by cillakat View Post
          I am so sick of this guy misrepresenting, either accidentally or purposefully, the available data.
          I'm sure Chris wouldn't purposefully misrepresent anything. He's good people. I hope you find the time to address your issues with the article.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by cillakat View Post
            I am so sick of this guy misrepresenting, either accidentally or purposefully, the available data.

            Oh that my day contained unlimited time to pick apart the crappy parts of his arguments though he's absolutely right that K2 and A play important roles.
            I've been following his posts on thyroid and e-mailing them to my mom because she has a thyroid disorder, low vit D levels, and other autoimmune issues. What do you think he is wrong about specifically?

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            • #7
              Paleo Man did. The articles Chris brought up were just crappy science. PM, thanks so much for taking the time. I just. don't. have it right now.

              I'm in MI, supposedly on vacation. 15 hours so far on a project for the homeschool group, then 30 emails regarding registration, 25 phone calls after I said 'no more emails', picked DH up at the airport, picked grandma up, went out for lunch, took her car shopping, dropped her at home, ran errands for her, came home, more hs group work, more grandma errands....

              Right now I'm supposed to be getting read as we have dinner reservations at 7:30.


              K



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              • #8
                Originally posted by Katie82 View Post
                I've been following his posts on thyroid and e-mailing them to my mom because she has a thyroid disorder, low vit D levels, and other autoimmune issues. What do you think he is wrong about specifically?
                Mom might be very interested in his link on the same site to his post on thyroid and gluten. A very large proportion of thyroid problems seem to relate to gluten and his website has some good info on the connection. Sometimes a very strict gluten free diet will stop the autoimmune destruction of the thyroid and help lower the risk of other autoimmune complications. See the link to Dr. Fine's essay in the thyroid and gluten article.

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                • #9
                  Thanks Paleo Man, I sent her that link already although she did try the GFCF diet for almost 3 months recently and it worked enough to reduce some pain and fatigue BUT then she stopped doing it! I don't know why. At the end of the post Chris recommends a GAPS diet to heal leaky gut syndrome which is way stricter than I believe she is willing to take on at the moment unfortunately. She also bought all those crappy GF replacement foods while she was doing the GFCF diet so I think that's why it didn't help as much as it could have. I'm just trying to get her back off gluten at the moment and to schedule time for sun midday but she is so busy. Thanks though.

                  Cillakat! you shouldn't even be on here on vacation. This forum can be a total time suck! so go enjoy, try to relax

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Katie82 View Post
                    Thanks Paleo Man, I sent her that link already although she did try the GFCF diet for almost 3 months recently and it worked enough to reduce some pain and fatigue BUT then she stopped doing it! I don't know why. At the end of the post Chris recommends a GAPS diet to heal leaky gut syndrome which is way stricter than I believe she is willing to take on at the moment unfortunately. She also bought all those crappy GF replacement foods while she was doing the GFCF diet so I think that's why it didn't help as much as it could have. I'm just trying to get her back off gluten at the moment and to schedule time for sun midday but she is so busy. Thanks though.
                    Too bad. Even a tiny amount of gluten every once in a while seems to be capable of preventing remission with autoimmune disorders, and recovery frequently requires avoidance of casein and other particular foods as well. Wheat apparently can also suppress vitamin D metabolism, so it appears that everything is connected. I'd just posted on autoimmune and gluten on an autoimmune thread.

                    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...330#post176330
                    Last edited by Paleo Man; 08-05-2010, 08:16 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paleo Man View Post
                      Too bad. Even a tiny amount of gluten every once in a while seems to be capable of preventing remission with autoimmune disorders, and recovery frequently requires avoidance of casein and other particular foods as well. Wheat apparently can also suppress vitamin D metabolism, so it appears that everything is connected. I'd just posted on autoimmune and gluten on an autoimmune thread.

                      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...330#post176330
                      Yes- eating gluten can cause an autoimmune flare-up that can last up to 8 months according to Datis Kharrazian (who's book on thyroid/autoimmune disorders is amazing!!) So, NOT WORTH IT!!
                      http://www.prettyinprimal.blogspot.com

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Paleo Man View Post
                        Too bad. Even a tiny amount of gluten every once in a while seems to be capable of preventing remission with autoimmune disorders,
                        My experience is showing though that when D is replete, a tiny amount of gluten, while never a good idea, is not harmful like it is when D is seriously deficient.

                        I'm hesitant to discuss my experiences in this area lest it be misconstrued as an implication that eating wheat is acceptable. But fwiw, my annual celiac related blood panels are all perfect in spite of occasional gluten ingestion (ie birthday celebration of a family member).



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                        • #13
                          Katherine!!!! Stop ingesting your family members, right now!!!!! Step ... away... from.... Grandma....

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cillakat View Post
                            My experience is showing though that when D is replete, a tiny amount of gluten, while never a good idea, is not harmful like it is when D is seriously deficient.

                            I'm hesitant to discuss my experiences in this area lest it be misconstrued as an implication that eating wheat is acceptable. But fwiw, my annual celiac related blood panels are all perfect in spite of occasional gluten ingestion (ie birthday celebration of a family member).
                            If Kenneth Fine, MD, is correct, then unless sufficient intestinal damage is evident, blood tests won't show elevated levels of anti-gliadin or anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies associated with an adaptive immune system response to gluten. This is apparently why Dr. Fine's very sensitive stool testing for gluten associated antibodies shows triple the incidence of blood testing. In effect, gluten ingestion causes antibodies to form in the gut and as gluten associated damage progresses, intestinal contents (including gluten fragments) leak into the bloodstream and antibodies are found in the blood as well.

                            If a person has been strictly off gluten for quite a while and takes effective steps to heal their intestinal damage and repair the leaky gut, I would expect that the communication between the gut and the blood stream would normalize. In such a case, if the gluten intolerant person for some reason (hard to fathom) decided to indulge in gluten, it might well be that the newly acquired integrity of the gut would prevent gluten fragments and gut antibodies from reaching circulation and showing in a gluten antibody blood test. As opposed to Dr. Fine's more sensitive stool testing.

                            I am aware of instances where someone with celiac DNA always tests negative by blood for gluten associated antibodies, tests positive by stool, and has serious and disabling autoimmune disease that is put into complete remission by a gluten free diet. Apparently a positive blood test is not a prerequisite to the development of serious autoimmune issues from ingestion of gluten. Gluten is a match. Autoimmunity is gasoline.

                            I wouldn't be surprised if Vitamin D at high levels, since it is in effect a type of steroid hormone, wouldn't modulate the adaptive immune response and especially autoimmunity, to suppress it to some extent. As prednisone would appear to do. But I wouldn't use it and assume that occasional wheat indulgences were not harmful, especially to anyone who has already presented with antibodies in blood or stool.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MikkiB View Post
                              Katherine!!!! Stop ingesting your family members, right now!!!!! Step ... away... from.... Grandma....
                              It's okay if Grandma is gluten-free.

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