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When did humans really start eating grains?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Harry View Post
    Yes, that sounds like good evidence of how significant grains were in diet. My point, which I keep trying to get across, is that strict primalists may be throwing out the baby with the bath water. If a few grains per week can be consumed without any harm, why limit yourself so much by being strict?

    For some people, of course, it has to be like stopping drinking or drugs - cold turkey. I have no problem having only a few servings of grains and potatoes per week. No cravings for more. I eat them with a smile on my face and no worries.

    One thing seems certain to me - Grok was not a picky eater. He couldn't be most of the time.

    Forum members frequently post that they ate something non-primal and "felt like crap." Well, most of us felt like crap when switching to a healthy primal diet. That doesn't mean that the stuff they ate was necessarily bad (sometimes it is), just that their bodies said "What the **** is this stuff?" To me, eating a wide variety of foods keeps my options open. If I go to a family gathering and "break bread," I won't feel like crap. (Well, i have a wheat allergy, but you get the idea.) I also suspect that when people "feel like crap," it's partly guilt feelings.
    You write much and say little. Your posts are very confused and confusing.

    I mean, come on dude. Yes, some people don't eat grains...ever. I am not one of them, btw. But really, who cares? People vary. In your pursuit of being scientific, you have developed a habit of getting bogged down in the details and losing sight of the big picture. The reason your point is failing to get across is because you're talking to people who see a forest while you only see trees.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Harry View Post
      My point, which I keep trying to get across, is that strict primalists may be throwing out the baby with the bath water. If a few grains per week can be consumed without any harm, why limit yourself so much by being strict?
      It would be their choice. They might also have a wheat allergy, or be trying to lose weight, and grains are basically empty carbohydrates. It wasn't until we started adding nutrients to grain products that some areas stopped getting diseases caused by malnourishment.

      My personal opinion on grains is that they are a sub-optimal food which are only beneficial in the face of starvation. As such, most people don't need them and it is only because they have become entrenched in our societies that even the traditional ways of preparing them to make them less problematic exist.
      Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
      Current weight: 199
      Goal: 145

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      • #33
        ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><(( ((º>
        ><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><(( ((º>

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        • #34
          Hey that guy stole my expression. Hrmf. Looks like he had it first, though. How about this one?

          raccoon..jpg
          Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

          Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

          Comment


          • #35
            Everything looks good above. One small point though. Skeletal evidence is not conclusive. Too many Neanderthal remains that have been found were so contorted that the cognoscenti for years believed that Neanderthals had postures like apes. Recently, at least in geological time, it has come to light that these contorted skeletons of Neanderthals were due to disease. Just like the diseases that afflict the structures of later folk. Need to be careful with arguments. Don't give the other side an out that they don't deserve.

            Just a note: A recent report claims that Neanderthals had a genetic characteristic of having a right arm that was much more developed than the left arm. This is based completely on the measurements made on one, just one, recently discovered Neanderthal skeleton. One big arm proves the issue. Personally, I think they just found the remains of the first tennis player.
            In the game of Rock, Paper, Scissors

            shotgun always wins.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gator View Post
              Too many Neanderthal remains that have been found were so contorted that the cognoscenti for years believed that Neanderthals had postures like apes. Recently, at least in geological time, it has come to light that these contorted skeletons of Neanderthals were due to disease. Just like the diseases that afflict the structures of later folk. Need to be careful with arguments.
              Explain 'just like'. None of the skeletons in the study linked were speaking of 'contorted'. Skeletal deformities run the gambit, but those being pointed out were the direct result of malnutrition, not other diseases.
              Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
              Current weight: 199
              Goal: 145

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Harry View Post
                Yes, that sounds like good evidence of how significant grains were in diet. My point, which I keep trying to get across, is that strict primalists may be throwing out the baby with the bath water. If a few grains per week can be consumed without any harm, why limit yourself so much by being strict?

                For some people, of course, it has to be like stopping drinking or drugs - cold turkey. I have no problem having only a few servings of grains and potatoes per week. No cravings for more. I eat them with a smile on my face and no worries.

                One thing seems certain to me - Grok was not a picky eater. He couldn't be most of the time.

                Forum members frequently post that they ate something non-primal and "felt like crap." Well, most of us felt like crap when switching to a healthy primal diet. That doesn't mean that the stuff they ate was necessarily bad (sometimes it is), just that their bodies said "What the **** is this stuff?" To me, eating a wide variety of foods keeps my options open. If I go to a family gathering and "break bread," I won't feel like crap. (Well, i have a wheat allergy, but you get the idea.) I also suspect that when people "feel like crap," it's partly guilt feelings.
                If you want permission from the forum members to eat grains, I really don't think it's necessary. I think you should just do it. If it's going to make you feel guilty about it then don't do it.

                If on the other hand you want to prove that the current theory of the start of the neolithic agriculture is incorrect, I think you need more evidence. Perhaps there were anomalous groups of humans who did eat grains on occasion prior to the defined neolithic age, but not in any significant amount to warrant change of the stone age time lines.
                Last edited by Asturian; 07-11-2010, 01:20 PM.
                “It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creeds into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics.”
                —Robert A. Heinlein

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                • #38
                  done
                  Last edited by cabeman; 09-12-2010, 12:45 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by cabeman View Post
                    "Just like"----OK, it is subjective, but the point is that skeletal remains of meat eating Neanderthals and of grain and lentil eating ancient Egyptians often have the same odd twists and bends to them. All disease, and here I include the effects of malnutrition, didn't start with amber fields of waving grain. I am not trying to convince anyone that grains are/were good. My intended message was to be a bit more careful in the argument or in the presentation of an argument.

                    No offense was meant.
                    .
                    No offense was taken, from Gator or you. Though I had thought that the article provided in the link was pretty specific, and thus not 'uncareful'.
                    Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
                    Current weight: 199
                    Goal: 145

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      cereal consumed today in sub-Saharan Africa for flours, breads, porridges and alcoholic beverages
                      I read an article that proposed grains were first used to ferment; grown specifically for that purpose. I don't know if that's necessarily true but I'd like to think so.

                      Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
                      -- David Rains Wallace
                      Retirement has afforded me the ultimate affluence, that of free time (Sahlins/Wells)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Probably the more authoritative research is by Cordain L. et al (2004) which states "Cereals
                        Because wild cereal grains are usually small, difficult to harvest,
                        and minimally digestible without processing (grinding) and
                        cooking, the appearance of stone processing tools in the fossil
                        record represents a reliable indication of when and where cultures
                        systematically began to include cereal grains in their diet
                        (7). Ground stone mortars, bowls, and cup holes first appeared in
                        the Upper Paleolithic (from 40 000 y ago to 12 000 y ago) (29),
                        whereas the regular exploitation of cereal grains by any worldwide
                        hunter-gatherer group arose with the emergence of the
                        Natufian culture in the Levant 13 000 BP (30). Domestication
                        of emmer and einkorn wheat by the descendants of the Natufians
                        heralded the beginnings of early agriculture and occurred by
                        10–11 000 BP from strains of wild wheat localized to southeastern
                        Turkey (31). During the ensuing Holocene (10 000 y ago
                        until the present), cereal grains were rarely consumed as year
                        round staples by most worldwide hunter-gatherers (32, 33), except
                        by certain groups living in arid and marginal environments
                        (32, 34). Hence, as was the case with dairy foods, before the
                        Epi-Paleolithic (10 000–11 000 y ago) and Neolithic (10 000 to
                        5500 y ago) periods, there was little or no previous evolutionary
                        experience for cereal grain consumption throughout hominin
                        evolution." The full text is in 'Origins and evolution of the Western diet: health implications for the
                        21st century1,2' Which was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and is actually quite a good read for a piece of research and helps to clarify why the Paleo diet is what it is. Think of yourself as a hunter gatherer, then consider your options - Do I have access to wheat? - No, it hasn't evolved/mutated from grass yet. Do I have access to milk/dairy products? - No, There are no domesticated animals who wouldn't eat me first if I tried to steal their milk! So there you go!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          As for how humans lived 12,000 years ago there were certainly hunter gatherers but this wasn't necessarily true of all the human cultures of the time.

                          There are maps such as the Piri Reis Map which was copied in 1513 from more ancient maps. This map shows the outline of South America and part of Antartica. Years before Columbus arrived in America.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map

                          There is Oronteus Fineaus map of 1531 which is also based on ancient maps which shows the outline of Antartica such as it would look like without the ice. We only learned what it looked like without ice in the late 1950's.

                          http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarch..._maps_oron.htm

                          There is this map from 1763 which is a copy of a Ming Dynasty map from 1418 (which was made from even older sources).
                          http://www.marcopolovoyages.com/home.html
                          http://www.marcopolovoyages.com/Beij...troduction.htm


                          In that Chinese map, there is a large island shown where there is now Easter Island and other small islands in the area.

                          It shows the world such as it would look like if the sea level would be much lower. As in how it would have looked like in the last ice age. Where we now have water separating Africa from Europe is solid land.


                          In this video:
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmMwo1Xzgus

                          From 4:12, those maps are mentionned as well as large stones which were found in Equador caves in 1984 which represent a world map. There is a continent shown between America and Africa. These maps based on how the continents are shown are estimated to be 10,000 to 12,000 years old.

                          A culture that has knowledge of what the continents of Earth look like is likely to be more advanced than simple hunter gatherers. Much land which was used by humans 12,000 years ago during the last ice age is now under water. There are some clues in these artifacts that indicate some level of advancement. The ancient maps indicate some knowledge of longitude and you need a way to accurately measure time in order to calculate it.
                          Last edited by Acteon; 09-13-2010, 10:04 PM. Reason: correction

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                          • #43
                            Acteon,

                            They would have been sea farers of course. Star mappers. And any cities they would have had would have been on coastlines long since submerged under several hundred feet of water and mud. Many of the ancient 'advanced' civilizations like the Egyptians and Mayans have legends that state their sciences (agriculture, star charting, medicine) were brought to them by 'gods' who may, or may not have been, survivors of some advanced culture that has been lost sometime during the end of the last ice age. Trying to figure out just who they may have been, however, is sheer speculation.
                            Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
                            Current weight: 199
                            Goal: 145

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              At the risk of repeating myself, I replied to this with definitice contemporary research in July 2010 - Probably the more authoritative research is by Cordain L. et al (2004) which states "Cereals
                              Because wild cereal grains are usually small, difficult to harvest,
                              and minimally digestible without processing (grinding) and
                              cooking, the appearance of stone processing tools in the fossil
                              record represents a reliable indication of when and where cultures
                              systematically began to include cereal grains in their diet
                              (7). Ground stone mortars, bowls, and cup holes first appeared in
                              the Upper Paleolithic (from 40 000 y ago to 12 000 y ago) (29),
                              whereas the regular exploitation of cereal grains by any worldwide
                              hunter-gatherer group arose with the emergence of the
                              Natufian culture in the Levant 13 000 BP (30). Domestication
                              of emmer and einkorn wheat by the descendants of the Natufians
                              heralded the beginnings of early agriculture and occurred by
                              10–11 000 BP from strains of wild wheat localized to southeastern
                              Turkey (31). During the ensuing Holocene (10 000 y ago
                              until the present), cereal grains were rarely consumed as year
                              round staples by most worldwide hunter-gatherers (32, 33), except
                              by certain groups living in arid and marginal environments
                              (32, 34). Hence, as was the case with dairy foods, before the
                              Epi-Paleolithic (10 000–11 000 y ago) and Neolithic (10 000 to
                              5500 y ago) periods, there was little or no previous evolutionary
                              experience for cereal grain consumption throughout hominin
                              evolution." The full text is in 'Origins and evolution of the Western diet: health implications for the
                              21st century1,2' Which was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and is actually quite a good read for a piece of research and helps to clarify why the Paleo diet is what it is. Think of yourself as a hunter gatherer, then consider your options - Do I have access to wheat? - No, it hasn't evolved/mutated from grass yet. Do I have access to milk/dairy products? - No, There are no domesticated animals who wouldn't eat me first if I tried to steal their milk! So there you go!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Yes. Not arguing that point. It's the intervening years that we have some lost records, since the coastlines are now all underwater.
                                Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
                                Current weight: 199
                                Goal: 145

                                Comment

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