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When did humans really start eating grains?

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  • #16
    I'm thinking more and more that some of these foods that paleo man ate weren't necessarily good for him, despite being part of "the paleo diet". Paleo man would eat anything that didn't kill him right away, because starvation is worse than some medium-grade inflammation, and his goals are far-removed from ours. We want optimal vitality, immunity, and longevity; paleo man wanted to live to see his next birthday. Also, all of these terrestrial tribes subsisting on jungle foragings can't really be considered to be the optimal food for humans. Whatever it was that facilitated the evolution into modern day homo sapiens was the optimal human food, as it made us what we are, everything else is an adaptation. We are absolutely terrible at converting ALA to DHA, and human brains require a lot of DHA. And considering what Cordain has supplied us with in the way of empirical evidence, grains are clearly not an adaptation up to the level that meat and vegetables are. Then again I don't think that the muscle meat of animals beyond a certain point is very good for us either. More muscle meat was available than would make a human optimally healthy, but it would have been eaten because once the fat and gelatin are used up, paleo man is still likely hungry.

    In my opinion speculation as to "what grok did" is only useful as a means to form a testable hypothesis and should carry no weight on its own. And it is difficult to pinpoint what an ideal condition rather than a tolerable condition is without the presupposition of what an ideal condition would be, which would beg the question.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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    • #17
      I am deliberately not commenting.....much like I should have consciously done in that other thread.



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      • #18
        Originally posted by cillakat View Post
        I am deliberately not commenting.....much like I should have consciously done in that other thread.
        Oh, go ahead, Cillakat. I'm always interested in what you have to say.
        Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
        Current weight: 199
        Goal: 145

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        • #19
          Loren Cordain July, 2010

          Currently there’s an epidemic of type 2 diabetes (T2D) worldwide, especially in Westernized countries. T2D is characterized by persistent elevated glucose levels due to disrupted insulin action or an alteration in pancreatic insulin production1.
          It was estimated that 171 million people were suffering from T2D in 2001, with a total overall population prevalence of 6%. More alarming is the fact that in Caucasian adolescents 4% suffer from T2D and 25% are glucose intolerant1. However, T2D prevalence in hunter-gatherer societies is low2-6, and even nonexistent in the island of Kitava in Trobiand Islands in Papua New Guinea3.
          Genetics does not seem to explain the difference, because when these populations are Westernized they suffer even more from diseases of civilization such as T2D, obesity, myocardial infarction and stroke among others7-10 than original Western populations. Furthermore, there’s evidence showing that hunter-gatherer populations can reverse T2D when they are resettled in their ancient habitat8, a fact that has been demonstrated in two recent clinical trials conducted on Western populations11, 12.
          Insulin resistance seems to be one of the factors involved in T2D which is caused, by low-grade chronic inflammation13-15 among other factors. Interestingly, low-grade chronic inflammation is a hallmark16-19 in T2D patients.
          Considering these factors, it seems plausible that the nutrition introduced with the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago played an important role in the current diabetes epidemic in Westernized populations. Western foods are overload with antinutrients, namely lectins, saponins and gliadin, which may explain the great disparity between paleolithic and modern Western food when it comes to metabolic syndrome (a combination of medical disorders that increase the risk of developing cardiovascular disease and diabetes). There is evidence showing that antinutrients act as endocrine disrupting substances, promoting metabolic syndrome20. On the other hand, antinutrients may elicit their negative health effects through increased intestinal permeability21. However, scant evidence exists regarding the role of antinutrients in the aetiology of Western diseases.
          Gliadin and increased intestinal permeability
          One of the most studied foods in the recent years is wheat, which contains a protein called gliadin, and is part of the gluten protein family22. Gliadin increases gut permeability by means of Zonulin production (a protein that regulates in tight junctions between cells in the wall of the digestive tract) in the gut enterocytes (epithelial cells found in the small intestines and colon). Zonulin binds the CXCR3 chemokine receptor leading to intracellular signalling cascades, mediated by protein kinase C (PKC), which ultimately causes disruption of the tight junction proteins which maintain the gut barrier function, and lead to increased gut permeability23, 24.
          In addition, when intestinal permeability is increased, gliadin - which is resistant to heat and digestive enzymes - is able to interact with gut associated lymphoid tissue (GALT) stimulating the innate immune system, leading to low-grade chronic inflammation22, 24. Several studies have demonstrated that gliadin induces the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines (a small protein released by cells that has a specific effect on the interactions between cells, communications between cells or the behavior of cells), independent of one’s genetic predisposition to celiac disease – which is virtually everyone23, 25, 26.
          Lectins and increased gut permeability
          Lectins are a family of glycoproteins (a complex protein containing a carbohydrate combined with a simple protein) found in the plant kingdom, including grains, legumes and solanacous plants (tomatoes, potatoes, eggplants and peppers)21, 27. Lectins also have the ability to bind sugar containing molecules. They were first studied for their ability to agglutinate (cause to adhere) red blood cells by binding to their cell membranes. Many lectins present in other foods are harmless, but some lectins found in grains, legumes and solanaceous plants have been shown to be harmful to human physiology28. Lectins are resistant to heat (unless cooked by pressure cooking)29 and digestive enzymes38, and therefore arrive intact when they reach the intestinal epithelium, passing through the intestinal barrier into peripheral circulation. Lectins are able to bind peripheral tissues, producing many deleterious health effects21. Furthermore, lectins disrupt intestinal barrier and immunological function when they bind surface glycans (a carbohydrate polymer containing simple sugars) on gut epithelial cells, causing cellular disruption and increasing gut permeability. Lectins also facilitate the growth of certain bacteria strains, stimulate T-cell proliferation, increase intercellular adhesion molecules (ICAM), stimulate production of pro-inflammatory cytokines (IL-1, TNF-alpha, etc.), and amplify HLA class II molecules expression, among other effects21.
          Saponins and increased gut permeability
          Saponins are glycoalkaloids (a family of poisons commonly found in the plant species Solanum dulcamara - nightshades) produced by plants, technically known as steroid glycosides or triterpenoids, are formed by a sugar compound (glucuronic acid, glucose or galactose, among others) and aglycone (non-sugar molecule) portion30-32. The aglycone portion binds the cholesterol molecule on gut cell membranes. When certain amounts of saponins bind cell membrane cholesterol molecules of the intestinal epithelial cells at a 1:1 ratio, the sugar portion of the saponins bind together, resulting in a complex molecule consisting of cholesterol and saponins. This new molecule disrupts the gut barrier and increases intestinal permeability. This has been shown in humans who consume a diet rich in alpha-solanine and alpha-chaconine - two of the saponins found in potatoes31.
          On the other hand, saponins have adjuvant-like activity, which means that they are able to affect the immune system leading to pro-inflammatory cytokine production33, 34, ultimately inducing insulin resistance.
          Intestinal permeability and endotoxemia
          Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

          Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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          • #20
            ....continued

            Intestinal epithelia act as a physical barrier between the outside and the inside of the body, meaning that the intestinal lumen is technically outside the organism. When the intestinal barrier is disrupted, it allows increased passage of gut luminal antigens derived from food, bacteria and viruses into the organism21. In case of bacteria derived antigens, lipopolysaccharide (LPS) is the most commonly studied and utilized antigen to induce acute immune stimulation, this is known as endotoxemia (the presence of endotoxins - a toxin that forms an integral part of the cell wall of certain bacteria - in the blood which may cause hemorrhages, necrosis of the kidneys, and shock)35. In addition, endotoxemia is associated with low-grade chronic inflammation, insulin resistance and T2D13, 18, 36. In a recent human study it was demonstrated that LPS induced low-grade chronic inflammation in adipose tissue in T2D36 humans.
            LPS-TLR4 interaction and low-grade chronic inflammation
            The innate immune system is localised in the GALT. When luminal antigens pass through the intestinal barrier, they are phagocited (consumed) by dendritic cells or macrophagues, key components of the innate immune system. Dendritic cells or macrophagues recognize antigens through a family of receptors known as Toll-like receptors (TLR). The best studied and known antigens from gram negative bacteria are LPS which interact with toll-like receptors-4 (TLR4), inducing the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines and ultimately insulin resistance and T2D35. Interestingly, a recently published study demonstrated increased TLR4 expression in T2D humans, contributing to an increased inflammatory state37.
            In summary, antinutrients introduced with the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago may be one of the causal factors in the epidemic of obesity, (as well as T2D) in Western countries. Lectins, saponins and gliadin increase intestinal permeability and allow increased passage of gut bacteria from intestinal lumen to peripheral circulation. LPS - an antigen found in gram-negative bacteria cell membranes - interacts with TLR-4, leading to inflammatory cytokine production and low-grade chronic inflammation, which is at the root of insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is recognised to induce the metabolic syndrome, including T2D. Endotoxemia-induced insulin resistance in T2D patients may be exacerbated, in part, by antinutrients.
            References:
            1. Stumvoll M, Goldstein BJ, van Haeften TW. Type 2 diabetes: principles of pathogenesis and therapy. Lancet 2005;365(9467):1333-46.
            2. Joffe BI, Jackson WP, Thomas ME, Toyer MG, Keller P, Pimstone BL. Metabolic responses to oral glucose in the Kalahari Bushmen. British medical journal 1971;4(5781):206-8.
            3. Lindeberg S, Eliasson M, Lindahl B, Ahren B. Low serum insulin in traditional Pacific Islanders--the Kitava Study. Metabolism: clinical and experimental 1999;48(10):1216-9.
            4. Merimee TJ, Rimoin DL, Cavalli-Sforza LL. Metabolic studies in the African pygmy. The Journal of clinical investigation 1972;51(2):395-401.
            5. Spielman RS, Fajans SS, Neel JV, Pek S, Floyd JC, Oliver WJ. Glucose tolerance in two unacculturated Indian tribes of Brazil. Diabetologia 1982;23(2):90-3.
            6. Zimmet P. Epidemiology of diabetes and its macrovascular manifestations in Pacific populations: the medical effects of social progress. Diabetes care 1979;2(2):144-53.
            7. Cruickshank JK, Mbanya JC, Wilks R, Balkau B, McFarlane-Anderson N, Forrester T. Sick genes, sick individuals or sick populations with chronic disease? The emergence of diabetes and high blood pressure in African-origin populations. International journal of epidemiology 2001;30(1):111-7.
            8. O'Dea K. Marked improvement in carbohydrate and lipid metabolism in diabetic Australian aborigines after temporary reversion to traditional lifestyle. Diabetes 1984;33(6):596-603.
            9. O'Dea K, Spargo RM, Akerman K. The effect of transition from traditional to urban life-style on the insulin secretory response in Australian Aborigines. Diabetes care 1980;3(1):31-7.
            10. O'Dea K, Spargo RM, Nestel PJ. Impact of Westernization on carbohydrate and lipid metabolism in Australian Aborigines. Diabetologia 1982;22(3):148-53.
            11. Jonsson T, Granfeldt Y, Ahren B, et al. Beneficial effects of a Paleolithic diet on cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot study. Cardiovascular diabetology 2009;8:35.
            12. Lindeberg S, Jonsson T, Granfeldt Y, et al. A Palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a Mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease. Diabetologia 2007;50(9):1795-807.
            13. Fernandez-Real JM, Pickup JC. Innate immunity, insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. Trends in endocrinology and metabolism: TEM 2008;19(1):10-6.
            14. Reyna SM, Ghosh S, Tantiwong P, et al. Elevated toll-like receptor 4 expression and signaling in muscle from insulin-resistant subjects. Diabetes 2008;57(10):2595-602.
            15. Song MJ, Kim KH, Yoon JM, Kim JB. Activation of Toll-like receptor 4 is associated with insulin resistance in adipocytes. Biochemical and biophysical research communications 2006;346(3):739-45.
            16. Duncan BB, Schmidt MI. The epidemiology of low-grade chronic systemic inflammation and type 2 diabetes. Diabetes technology & therapeutics 2006;8(1):7-17.
            17. Kimberly MM, Cooper GR, Myers GL. An overview of inflammatory markers in type 2 diabetes from the perspective of the clinical chemist. Diabetes technology & therapeutics 2006;8(1):37-44.
            18. Pickup JC. Inflammation and activated innate immunity in the pathogenesis of type 2 diabetes. Diabetes care 2004;27(3):813-23.
            19. Spranger J, Kroke A, Mohlig M, et al. Inflammatory cytokines and the risk to develop type 2 diabetes: results of the prospective population-based European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC)-Potsdam Study. Diabetes 2003;52(3):812-7.
            20. Jonsson T, Olsson S, Ahren B, Bog-Hansen TC, Dole A, Lindeberg S. Agrarian diet and diseases of affluence--do evolutionary novel dietary lectins cause leptin resistance? BMC endocrine disorders 2005;5:10.
            21. Cordain L, Toohey L, Smith MJ, Hickey MS. Modulation of immune function by dietary lectins in rheumatoid arthritis. The British journal of nutrition 2000;83(3):207-17.
            22. Fasano A. Surprises from celiac disease. Scientific American 2009;301(2):54-61.
            23. Drago S, El Asmar R, Di Pierro M, et al. Gliadin, zonulin and gut permeability: Effects on celiac and non-celiac intestinal mucosa and intestinal cell lines. Scandinavian journal of gastroenterology 2006;41(4):408-19.
            24. Visser J, Rozing J, Sapone A, Lammers K, Fasano A. Tight junctions, intestinal permeability, and autoimmunity: celiac disease and type 1 diabetes paradigms. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 2009;1165:195-205.
            25. Bernardo D, Garrote JA, Fernandez-Salazar L, Riestra S, Arranz E. Is gliadin really safe for non-coeliac individuals? Production of interleukin 15 in biopsy culture from non-coeliac individuals challenged with gliadin peptides. Gut 2007;56(6):889-90.
            26. Rakhimova M, Esslinger B, Schulze-Krebs A, Hahn EG, Schuppan D, Dieterich W. In vitro differentiation of human monocytes into dendritic cells by peptic-tryptic digest of gliadin is independent of genetic predisposition and the presence of celiac disease. Journal of clinical immunology 2009;29(1):29-37.
            27. Kilpatrick DC, Pusztai A, Grant G, Graham C, Ewen SW. Tomato lectin resists digestion in the mammalian alimentary canal and binds to intestinal villi without deleterious effects. FEBS letters 1985;185(2):299-305.
            28. Cordain L. Cereal grains: humanity's double-edged sword. World review of nutrition and dietetics 1999;84:19-73.
            29. Grant G, More LJ, McKenzie NH, Pusztai A. The effect of heating on the haemagglutinating activity and nutritional properties of bean (Phaseolus vulgaris) seeds. Journal of the science of food and agriculture 1982;33(12):1324-6.
            30. Francis G, Kerem Z, Makkar HP, Becker K. The biological action of saponins in animal systems: a review. The British journal of nutrition 2002;88(6):587-605.
            31. Patel B, Schutte R, Sporns P, Doyle J, Jewel L, Fedorak RN. Potato glycoalkaloids adversely affect intestinal permeability and aggravate inflammatory bowel disease. Inflammatory bowel diseases 2002;8(5):340-6.
            32. Keukens EA, de Vrije T, van den Boom C, et al. Molecular basis of glycoalkaloid induced membrane disruption. Biochimica et biophysica acta 1995;1240(2):216-28.
            33. Oda K, Matsuda H, Murakami T, Katayama S, Ohgitani T, Yoshikawa M. Adjuvant and haemolytic activities of 47 saponins derived from medicinal and food plants. Biological chemistry 2000;381(1):67-74.
            34. Pickering RJ, Smith SD, Strugnell RA, Wesselingh SL, Webster DE. Crude saponins improve the immune response to an oral plant-made measles vaccine. Vaccine 2006;24(2):144-50.
            35. Cani PD, Bibiloni R, Knauf C, et al. Changes in gut microbiota control metabolic endotoxemia-induced inflammation in high-fat diet-induced obesity and diabetes in mice. Diabetes 2008;57(6):1470-81.
            36. Creely SJ, McTernan PG, Kusminski CM, et al. Lipopolysaccharide activates an innate immune system response in human adipose tissue in obesity and type 2 diabetes. American journal of physiology 2007;292(3):E740-7.
            37. Dasu MR, Devaraj S, Park S, Jialal I. Increased toll-like receptor (TLR) activation and TLR ligands in recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic subjects. Diabetes care;33(4):861-8.
            Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

            Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Stabby View Post
              ....continued
              Settled then.

              See, no need to comment. But thanks Katt.



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              • #22
                Originally posted by tfarny View Post
                Actually this stuff is relatively settled science (as ancient studies goes) and laid out in lots of interesting layperson friendly books. Marks version of the story is consistent with all the prehistory / anthro that Ive read. Read some Jared Diamond if you want to learn lots of good stuff about early man, hunter gatherers, etc. Man hunted enough to cause the extinction of all the mega- mammals on the N American continent many thousands of years ago - the giant American camels and ground sloths disappeared soon after man arrived, for instance.
                We were not eating many if any grains until about 10 000 years ago, and even then only in a couple of places, most of the world continued as hunters or at least herders for a few thousand years beyond that.
                We don't know nearly enough about prehistoric man for it to be settled science. The study to which I referred you was recent. It suggested that we were eating some grains for 100,000 years. We don't know at this point how widespread the practice was nor how much was consumed. Given the difficulty of finding evidence one way or the other, it may be a long time before the issue is settled, if ever.

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                • #23
                  Trying. So. Hard.



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                  • #24
                    Something I read in the previous posts brought to mind another take on the dental cavity thing. Cavities became more prevalent once agriculture set in. Fine. Is that due to eating more grains or eating less meat? Are dental caries more prevalent among vegetarians or omnivores? Is there any difference? I don't really care, but I think it is an interesting question.

                    Cillakat: What is your point with all of the "gotta say something but I won't---you have to come to my level on your own" bit?

                    Stop being so smug and be willing to fall on your face like the rest of us.

                    Someone on the board has a signature that I like. "Even if you fall flat on your face, at least you are moving forward". Yea, I like that a lot.

                    We only learn when we have our needs to learn open, so that teachers can see our need and enlighten us. So, go ahead, enlighten us.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Harry View Post
                      We don't know nearly enough about prehistoric man for it to be settled science. The study to which I referred you was recent. It suggested that we were eating some grains for 100,000 years. We don't know at this point how widespread the practice was nor how much was consumed. Given the difficulty of finding evidence one way or the other, it may be a long time before the issue is settled, if ever.
                      My take on this would be to look at the skeletal evidence. It is not until around 10,000 years ago when we begin to see the prevalence of caries, nutritional deficiencies and other abnormalities within the populations of people that are historically known to be agricultural. Dr. Eades linked a study that showed this difference even in Native American groups before, and after, settling down to farm. It would be a good indication that grains did not really make up a significant portion of our diet until that time.

                      http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/l...ter-gatherers/
                      Last edited by Katt; 07-10-2010, 04:36 AM.
                      Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
                      Current weight: 199
                      Goal: 145

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by cabeman View Post

                        Cillakat: What is your point with all of the "gotta say something but I won't---you have to come to my level on your own" bit?

                        Stop being so smug and be willing to fall on your face like the rest of us.

                        We only learn when we have our needs to learn open, so that teachers can see our need and enlighten us. So, go ahead, enlighten us.
                        I very much doubt her posts are a result of smugness. She may merely recognize that some (or one) in this thread don't have their "needs to learn open".

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Roach View Post
                          I very much doubt her posts are a result of smugness. She may merely recognize that some (or one) in this thread don't have their "needs to learn open".
                          Thanks Roach.




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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by cillakat View Post
                            Trying. So. Hard.
                            I suspect that the OP may be a troll and no amount of evidence may sway his mind. However, many other people interested in this discussion may be reading this thread and not commenting, or may not yet be members of the forum. So post what you are going to post for the benefit of those of us who are genuinely interested.
                            A steak a day keeps the doctor away

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bushrat View Post
                              I suspect that the OP may be a troll and no amount of evidence may sway his mind. However, many other people interested in this discussion may be reading this thread and not commenting, or may not yet be members of the forum. So post what you are going to post for the benefit of those of us who are genuinely interested.
                              I second this. Again.
                              Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
                              Current weight: 199
                              Goal: 145

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Katt View Post
                                My take on this would be to look at the skeletal evidence. It is not until around 10,000 years ago when we begin to see the prevalence of caries, nutritional deficiencies and other abnormalities within the populations of people that are historically known to be agricultural. Dr. Eades linked a study that showed this difference even in Native American groups before, and after, settling down to farm. It would be a good indication that grains did not really make up a significant portion of our diet until that time.

                                http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/l...ter-gatherers/
                                Yes, that sounds like good evidence of how significant grains were in diet. My point, which I keep trying to get across, is that strict primalists may be throwing out the baby with the bath water. If a few grains per week can be consumed without any harm, why limit yourself so much by being strict?

                                For some people, of course, it has to be like stopping drinking or drugs - cold turkey. I have no problem having only a few servings of grains and potatoes per week. No cravings for more. I eat them with a smile on my face and no worries.

                                One thing seems certain to me - Grok was not a picky eater. He couldn't be most of the time.

                                Forum members frequently post that they ate something non-primal and "felt like crap." Well, most of us felt like crap when switching to a healthy primal diet. That doesn't mean that the stuff they ate was necessarily bad (sometimes it is), just that their bodies said "What the **** is this stuff?" To me, eating a wide variety of foods keeps my options open. If I go to a family gathering and "break bread," I won't feel like crap. (Well, i have a wheat allergy, but you get the idea.) I also suspect that when people "feel like crap," it's partly guilt feelings.

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