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  • Insulin…an Undeserved Bad Reputation

    Another controversial blog by James Krieger (who also critiqued GCBC recently).

    Insulin…an Undeserved Bad Reputation

    I agree that insulin doesn't directly drive fat accumulation without excess calories (indirectly through leptin resistance is possible), it just makes sure that carbohydrate is burned before fat is burned, but doesn't change the number of burned calories. There is also this persistent myth that insulin makes you hungrier, but all the papers I've read said the opposite, without fail. Insulin injected into the brain, for instance, reduces food intake.
    Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
    Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
    No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
    Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

  • #2
    It does drive fat accumulation without excess calories. Excess calories aren't required. Check this out: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshel...ype=box&id=A64
    Was she only getting "excess calories" at the injection sites?
    www.KataStrength.blogspot.com
    Free the Kettlebell

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    • #3
      Sure insulin stimulates leptin, the problem is in the context of fat people who are highly insulin resistant and slugging the carbs (especially refined carbs like Taubes says about a bajjilion times) which causes an insulin explosion leading to lots of de novo lipogenesis meaning tons of circulating palmitic acid and thus, leptin resistance. I don't like the notion of taking normal physiological functions and trying to extrapolate them to the highly insulin resistant. Get someone less insulin resistant and then we'll talking about carbs. Is this douche bag trying to make people less insulin resistant? Nope, he tells them to eat less and exercise more. Which well make them lose a little weight and thus become less insulin resistant, but it hardly address the underlying issues and puts the body into starvation mode.

      Also I agree with protein stimulates insulin by itself. Protein, however, doesn't cause the whole pancreas panic scenario since circulating protein isn't highly damaging. And it does get turned into glucose, so too much protein can be a detriment to fat-loss as well. Again, we can't extrapolate studies of healthy people to studies of insulin resistant people. That's dishonest.
      Last edited by Stabby; 07-06-2010, 10:41 AM.
      Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

      Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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      • #4
        Does Kreiger ever make dietary recommendations or does he just love pulling obscure results from tables in involved research and posting contrarian opinion? He's like a more sane Colpo with the same Taubes-envy, and I really don't think he does much service to a society suffering from Metabolic Syndrome, Pre Diabetes, Diabetes, morbid obesity and childhood obesity.

        What does he recommend people eat? I am curious. Every time I read one of his articles, I pull a couple of his cited studies and wonder what his real deal is. Here is the only one I looked at from his cites in the posted link.

        The study had a randomized cross-over, double blind design. Twenty-one healthy men with mean age of 33 + or - 14 years received two liquid breakfasts with either high protein/low carbohydrate (HP/LC) or low protein/high carbohydrate (LP/HC) ratio on separate days with a washout period of one week in between. Subjective reports on satiety and postprandial wellness (pleasantness, satisfaction, relaxation, sleepiness, physical energy and mental alertness) were established using visual analogue scales at regular time points after consumption of the breakfasts up to 240 min. Blood concentrations of CCK, ghrelin, glucose, and insulin were determined at the same time points. The HP/LC breakfast induced higher levels of satiety and specific parameters of postprandial wellness (satisfaction, pleasantness and the pleasantness of these feelings) than the LP/HC breakfast at 3 or 4h after consumption. The corresponding higher CCK and lower ghrelin concentrations at these time points supported these subject reported changes. These results indicate that meal composition influences some parameters of postprandial wellness in line with physiological responses. Further research is warranted to confirm the observed relationships. Also the relevance for food intake behaviour remains to be established.
        So the low carb group enjoys the awesome results we all discuss here (great pro low carb study, btw!!), but he digs some probably oddball insulin stats from HEALTHY MEN in the tables to again attack low carb thinking. I am officially sick of Kreider. I think he has a giant case of Taubes-envy and figures the way to fame and notoriety is to be the brilliant contrarian. Whatever.

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        • #5
          Thanks Stabby. People who love to nitpick and obsess are falling in love with Kreiger. You explain it far better than me. I am putting him on ignore.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by couch handy View Post
            It does drive fat accumulation without excess calories. Excess calories aren't required.
            In normal conditions I should have said (including normal and obese subjects). Type 1 diabetics may also lose a lot of weight even when they overeat.
            Last edited by Mirrorball; 07-06-2010, 11:28 AM.
            Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
            Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
            No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
            Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

            Comment


            • #7
              I would suggest de novo lipogenisis rarely happens in humans. Think about it. If the human body was efficient at turning carbs to fat then any excess glucose trying to get crammed into already full glycogen stores would then be turned into fat and stored (or so the theory goes) and insulin resistance would be avoided. As we all know insulin resistance is rampant. The fat gets stored as your body tries to burn the ever present glucose. All the symptoms of MSX and TII would be avoided if de novo lipogenisis happened on a continious basis by keeping glucose out of the blood.

              Spikes in insulin mean nothing if you have the room for storage.

              Chronically full glycogen stores are the problem not insulin.
              Don't be a paleotard...

              http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

              http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...torage-qa.html

              http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...rn-fat-qa.html

              http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Stabby View Post
                Sure insulin stimulates leptin, the problem is in the context of fat people who are highly insulin resistant and slugging the carbs (especially refined carbs like Taubes says about a bajjilion times) which causes an insulin explosion leading to lots of de novo lipogenesis meaning tons of circulating palmitic acid and thus, leptin resistance.
                Did you listen to Jimmy Moore's newest podcast interview with Dr Lustig? Very interesting: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/%...carb-diet/8474
                Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
                Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
                No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
                Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes I did and I agree with everything he says. I'm still not eating bananas. Whereas Lustig is speaking from the perspective of disease en masse, my perspective is far too removed from his. I'm more interested in optimal functioning, longevity, and vitality. So you'll never find me saying that fruit is going to cause fatty liver disase or massive obesity in and of itself, but I think that it' sub-optimal.
                  Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

                  Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by chima_p View Post
                    I would suggest de novo lipogenisis rarely happens in humans.
                    AFAIK, glucose is rarely converted into fat unless you eat really, really high amounts of it, but excess fructose often ends up that way. See Dr Lustig's interview, it's really interesting.
                    Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
                    Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
                    No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
                    Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I fell asleep listening to Lustig yesterday, but I was just over tired. I liked everything he had to say and will get to the rest of it when I get a chance.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        De novo lipogenesis happens more when people are highly insulin resistant. We're getting back to using "healthy adults" to speak about the obese. If de novo lipogenesis didn't happen, nobody would have elevated triglyercides. If someone wants to lose a much weight as possible as quickly as possible and become as healthy as they can be, they should restrict carbs for a few months. Not calories.
                        Last edited by Stabby; 07-06-2010, 11:55 AM.
                        Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

                        Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Grol View Post
                          I really don't think he does much service to a society suffering from Metabolic Syndrome, Pre Diabetes, Diabetes, morbid obesity and childhood obesity.
                          Grol,

                          Perhaps you should read my bio before making such assertions. One quote from it:

                          He is the former research director for a corporate weight management program that treated over 400 people per year, with an average weight loss of 40 pounds in 3 months

                          This program is here, although I am no longer with them. You can see many of the success stories here, and these are the rule rather than the exception. You can see overall program stats here, which includes nearly all of our clients with metabolic syndrome going into remission.

                          If you think all of the above is not doing much service to people in society suffering from these ailments, then I'm curious what you consider service.

                          but he digs some probably oddball insulin stats from HEALTHY MEN in the tables to again attack low carb thinking
                          You apparently didn't see the study I cited that compared insulin resistant obese to lean men. And if you want more research on insulin resistant people, then I can certainly provide it. The results aren't much different.

                          What does he recommend people eat?
                          It depends upon someone's individual needs. I tend to favor a high protein, low to moderate carobhydrate approach but that is not universal and will depend upon many factors related to the individual.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JamesKrieger View Post
                            Grol,
                            Perhaps you should read my bio before making such assertions. One quote from it:


                            Thanks for stopping by. I think I have read everything at both your new and old sites. I'm sorry about my reactionary (emotional?) response here. I would have been more respectful had I known you were reading. haha.

                            You certainly have forgotten more than I will probably ever learn, but I just hate being derailed in the midst of my weight loss project. Blinders seem healthy for me right now. Taubes and co have helped me enormously. And right or wrong, that is how I feel (derailed) reading much of your material. The apology is sincere though. Your response could have understandably been far more defensive. I am too obsessive over info in this field to actually put someone with your credentials on ignore. I'll keep reading, but I have to keep doing what is working wonderfully for me.

                            We don't seem far apart anyway.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Grol,

                              Apology accepted.

                              I want to clarify my position on Taubes. It is no doubt that he got people to take a look at the benefits of low-carb dieting, and that is a good thing. He also got people thinking about the quality of carbohydrate ingested, which is a good thing. He got people thinking about how refined carbohydrate may be a contributor to obesity, which is a good thing. And low-carb certainly has benefits. However, to me, the ends does not justify the means. What I mean by that is that Taubes's book is full of incomplete or incorrect information, which I have a problem with, even if it's helped people lose weight. For every person that has success with low-carb dieting, there is someone who is irrationally scared to death over every single gram of carbohydrate because of Taubes's book. One person on my site wrote, that for every person that has low-carb success, "there are probably hundreds of people who can’t tolerate low carb for the long term. These people agonize over falling off the wagon, think that every gram of carb is like ingesting shards of glass or rat poison and beat themselves up to the point of binging and doing more harm." And this is where I feel his book does a disservice. I think his book oversimplifies the problem of obesity, which means it also oversimplifies the solution.

                              I do understand that my posts on Taubes have been too confrontational and harsh, and as I continue my review of the book, I am going to make an effort to tone that down. But I will still need to challenge the information as Taubes presents it, because I strongly feel the book can be very misleading. This doesn't mean he is intentionally misleading people, but nevertheless a more complete presentation is needed.

                              James

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