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How natural is monogamy for men?

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  • #31
    I can't see how we could ever be able to "break free", as every conduct is necessarily, to some degree, a result of gene expression. We wouldn't be able to override a given genotypical predisposition by using the very same genotype that we want to override, unless these instructions where previously coded, in which case this overriding would be a consequence of past variables and thus predetermined anyway.

    It's like expecting a Beta Max to work as a VHS. Even if the Beta Max had hardware and software that allowed it to go and gather materials and construct a VHS drive for it self, read the tapes and play them, that would imply the presence of those instructions in the original software, thus making it predetermined. Unless this software was tampered with some sort of external influence, but then we could not talk about "voluntary" VHS drive construction...

    Ok I'm done this is way off topic
    “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
    "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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    • #32
      Not completely off topic, it reinforces the point that can subvert genetics to a degree and that we're not just mindless copulation machines.

      Despite how fun that would be.
      Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

      Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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      • #33
        As I recall from cultural anthropology class (many moons ago) most HG societies are polygamous. Only one had polyandry (one woman, many husbands). But they are usually polygamous in a peculiar way - one man must marry all of his mother's sister's daughters, for example, or take on all the wives of his brother, should his brother be killed. It makes sense genetically. More babies sharing more similar genes, a group of women taking care of them with more incentive to protect all than the offspring of an unrelated female.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Bostonbully View Post
          so the whole spread the seed primal thing is just an excuse to bang chicks. Would I like to spread my seed all over a few chicks?.
          Who needs an excuse?

          Excuses are for people who care what others think.

          "Mating" "Spreading geneteic material" blah, blah....

          Fucking feels good, people will do it.

          Condoms, and abortions are awesome.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by SerialSinner View Post
            That's sounds very optimistic as well, but thanks
            Alright. So it was.




            iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order

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            • #36
              The preceding was aptly described by William Shakespeare in "Macbeth", Act 5, Scene 5..........."---a tale told---etc.
              In the game of Rock, Paper, Scissors

              shotgun always wins.

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              • #37
                DarthFriendly: I agree with you here on almost all of your post. People aren't conscieously thinking of passing on genes; they are thinking that this could be an enjoyable event. The hell with genes.

                I disagree about abortion being a wonderful thing though.

                GAtor: I looked up the Shakespeare thing. "A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

                I'll go with a tale full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. You need to clarify what you mean by "idiot".
                Tayatha om bekandze

                Bekandze maha bekandze

                Randza samu gate soha

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by periquin View Post
                  I disagree about abortion being a wonderful thing though.
                  While I wouldn't say abortion = wonderful, I would unequivocally state that access to safe and legal abortion = wonderful.



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                  • #39
                    In regards to the typical modern day culture-Commitment is an action , not a feeling. Good luck dictating your relationships by your emotions! Disney movies and our obsession with comparing ourselves to animals, leads to selfish, fantasy laden , empty lives. Yes we have desires and a great deal of free will, but we also have the ability to reason and exhibit self control. Excuses, excuses, excuses- look what this mentality has done for people and food. Obese, addicted, lazy and compulsive-emotional consumers.

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                    • #40
                      Evita, the thing is that we *are* animals, and like any other animal we come hard-wired with certain behavioral tendencies that are supposed to promote the perpetuation of our genes.

                      Being aware of these tendencies is far from being a way to evade responsibility. On the contrary, it gives people who seek successful long-term relationships more tools to make a good partner choice, becasue the more solid the emotional/intellectual sides become, the more the couple would be able to overcome their (apparently inevitable) biological imperatives. It also helps people not beating themselves up for the natural cravings or "impure thoughts" that will necessarily, at some point, come. Does that make sense?

                      The free will-argument becomes relevant when addressing these "inevitable" imperatives. My take is that we have less control over them that we think (psychological determinism). It might sound to some as making excuses for oneself, but from the biological side, it makes a lot of sense and explains many aspects of social conduct (game theory, why people make "irrational" decisions, etc).

                      And about people being obese as a result of sloth and gluttony, I think there is more than enough info on the forum and the Paleo blogosphere to understand that that is not true.
                      Last edited by SerialSinner; 06-29-2010, 04:17 PM. Reason: typos
                      “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
                      "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
                      "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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                      • #41
                        I referenced the compulsion mentality, to obesity-not the sloth and gluttony result you mentioned.
                        Interesting points Serial, thanks
                        I agree that men and women are "wired " for various things, and sure it's only natural to experience the desire that expresses it but I don't consider myself an "animal".

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by cillakat View Post
                          While I wouldn't say abortion = wonderful, I would unequivocally state that access to safe and legal abortion = wonderful.
                          The law says that abortion is fine. Shows how perverse laws are. Once the law said people could be baked or parboiled. Didn't make it right.

                          For me, abortion is murder of a nascent human being. People claim that it isn't human; it is just tissue. I could accept that if after nine months gestation, women gave birth to bunnies, cats, fish, birds, monkeys, or just blobs of protoplasm. That isn't what happens though. Every time it is a human baby.
                          Tayatha om bekandze

                          Bekandze maha bekandze

                          Randza samu gate soha

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by cillakat View Post
                            While I wouldn't say abortion = wonderful, I would unequivocally state that access to safe and legal abortion = wonderful.
                            The law says that abortion is legal. That shows how perverse laws are. Once it was legal to roast and bake people, but that didn't make it right.

                            I hold that abortion is murder of a nascent human being.

                            Many people claim that the developing human is just tissue. If at the end of gestation, women gave birth to bunnies, birds, worms, fish, cats, hamsters, etc, or even just lumps of protoplasm I might be able to accept that 'just tissue' bit. However, every time women give birth, it is to human babies. It isn't just tissue. It is a human being in the first stages of development---development that only starts with gestation and birth and continues for another decade or so.
                            Tayatha om bekandze

                            Bekandze maha bekandze

                            Randza samu gate soha

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                            • #44
                              periquin, in places where there aren't laws about these things (or the laws aren't upheld, or people are desperate), not only abortion but infanticide and infant abandonment are commonly practiced and even socially accepted. These are natural human behaviors. We purposefully kill our own babies, much more than a majority of species, because we have foresight. You should be very glad to live in a place and time where we go very far trying to limit these inclinations and provide alternatives for unwanted babies besides death.

                              Of course monogamy is not 'natural' for human men OR women (who are men 'spreading their seed' with? Not just unmarried women, especially in those ages and places where virginity was guarded and most women were married past extreme youth). I thought it had been established that humans are a 'naturally' polygynous (polygyny is/has been practiced in a large majority of the cultures worldwide) pair-bonding species. Although marriages are a common institution almost everywhere (because of father's investment in their offspring, we're very different in this way from any other primates but some gibbons/tamarins/marmosets), and extensive precautions are often in place to prevent sexual cheating, it's still rampant. Unfortunately this is rather difficult to study; how many fathers are going to want to participate in a study to determine if their children were really fathered by them?

                              Really there is almost no true monogamy in nature. Among species that 'mate for life' or form strong partnerships such as many species of bird, close observation has found that sexual cheating is rampant. There are many fun experiments that have been done on so-called monagamist birds; such as vasectomizing the males of closely observed pairs, which didn't lead to any decrease in baby birds. 'Extra-pair copulations' is the key phrase, and it's quite common in human women as it is in females of almost every other species.

                              Sex has many 'evolutionary' purposes besides reproduction, especially in people.

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                              • #45
                                animacule--re your post

                                "periquin, in places where there aren't laws about these things (or the laws aren't upheld, or people are desperate), not only abortion but infanticide and infant abandonment are commonly practiced and even socially accepted. These are natural human behaviors. We purposefully kill our own babies, much more than a majority of species, because we have foresight. You should be very glad to live in a place and time where we go very far trying to limit these inclinations and provide alternatives for unwanted babies besides death."
                                *** *** *** ***

                                I accept that infanticide and infant abandonment are most likely commonly practiced, but I will not agree that it is socially accepted by all, or even most. I sincerely doubt that these things are natural human behaviors. Parents, even strangers, tend to risk their lives--even give their lives --in attempts to keep children alive.

                                Killing our own babies does not indicate foresight. It is a sign of moral and ethical weakness.

                                I am glad to live in a place and time where alternatives to destruction of innocents are in place. There are parties that do not want these alternatives and strive to prevent knowledge of them to be promulgated. Strangely, these people call themselves the "pro-choice" group. I only wish that the people behind the abortion clinics would allow these alternatives to be presented to pregnant women before they commit their butchery on them.

                                There are other alternatives that should be employed before pregnancy occurs, but I won't go into that here. From the comments I have been reading that would be useless.
                                Tayatha om bekandze

                                Bekandze maha bekandze

                                Randza samu gate soha

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