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Excellent Critique of Good Calories, Bad Calories

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mirrorball View Post
    I know. What I wanted to say was that 2 tbsp coconut oil have the same number of calories as 5 tbsp sugar.
    Calories? Who cares? Which jacks the insulin and which doesn't? Which elevates LDL and which doesn't? Which raises HDL and which doesn't?
    www.KataStrength.blogspot.com
    Free the Kettlebell

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    • #62
      I disagree about craving carbs on a low-carb diet. I am no grains, no sugar, (very) minimal fruit and what happens? ZERO cravings.

      Meanwhile, my whole life low-fat? Starbucks once messed up my order of "no fat, venti latte" and I got a full-fat version. It was like I had found El Dorado in my mouth. The fat was HEAVENLY. I remained on a low-fat WOE for, oh, about 7 more years. Sad, sad, sad.
      Because if you didn't know, of that is life made: only of moments; Don't lose the now.
      ~Borges

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      • #63
        The book / Fitday / someone on the Internet knows more about what their bodies need than their bodies themselves.
        The same applies to you Mirrorball. I don't understand your passionate defense for carbs when:

        - it's a fact that most healthy people can thrive in-spite of some good carbs
        - it is beyond clear that the vast majority of healthy people do not need them to thrive
        - it is a fact that some carbs screw up many people's metabolism and triggers chronic hunger and carb cravings
        - It's a fact that many of us have experienced abysmal health improvements as a result of going VLC
        - Most of us completely agree that some types of carbs are ok for some people in different quantities.
        - Most of us agree that Taubes inaccurately vilifies *all* carbs, when the reality is that there are "good" and "bad" carbs.

        I think, however, that we should all recognize Taube's merit for questioning dietary CW, elaborating on the lack of scientific foundation and ethical corruption of the medical community when vilifying saturated fats and therefore triggering a world epidemic, and for encouraging people having health problems to go low carb in-spite of what their ignorant doctors say.

        It is also understandable that people who had had their lives and metabolisms screwed by high-carb diets are prone to rant about them, especially in a forum like these. Wouldn't you think?

        So if you love carbs and can pull them-off, by all means go get a mega carb-refill and be happy. Others might choose to stay away from them until they are 100% sure that the metabolic issues triggered by them have been completely reverted, others like me find them basically irrelevant, but will have some of them in the right circumstances from time to time. To each it's own.
        -
        “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
        "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
        "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Mirrorball View Post
          Really? So maybe you are sugar addicts. But I would also consider leptin resistance, low blood sugar and nutrient deprivation as explanations before you label yourself an addict. Sugar is a fix for hypoglicaemia, a real fix.
          I'm hyperglycemic, pre diabetic, high blood sugar problems. The exact opposite. I have always had borderline high blood sugar.

          Originally posted by Mirrorball View Post
          But cravings usually happened when I was on any kind of restrictive diet. Low-carb makes me crave carbs just as badly as low-fat makes me crave fat. Nope, I still don't believe in sugar addiction. Too many people believe that they shouldn't eat X because a book said they don't need X. And if they crave X, they are addicts. It can't possibly be that their brains are telling them to eat more evil X because their glycogen stores are depleted or they need more nutrients that X contains.
          If it was just cravings then I would agree. I am talking about withdrawals, massive headaches, insomnia, flu like symptoms. Does that happen when we eliminate fats? Is there a low fat flu? I honestly don't know, but I think I would have read about it by now. A high percentage of people who cut carbs experience withdrawals that create not just the psychological cravings you're unimpressed with, but real physical cravings. Meh. It don't matter. Good discussion. I do think Serial Sinner's last post is a good roundup.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by SerialSinner View Post
            - it is a fact that some carbs screw up many people's metabolism and triggers chronic hunger and carb cravings
            Some foods screw up people's metabolism. That includes vegetable oils, which are almost pure fat. Grains are not pure starch; gluten is in fact a protein (two proteins IIRC). Lectins are proteins.
            Originally posted by SerialSinner View Post
            I think, however, that we should all recognize Taube's merit for questioning dietary CW
            I agree, and we should follow his example and question Taubes himself too.
            Originally posted by SerialSinner View Post
            It is also understandable that people who had had their lives and metabolisms screwed by high-carb diets are prone to rant about them, especially in a forum like these. Wouldn't you think?
            Have they had their lives screwed by high-carb diets or by high-grain and high-refined-sugar diets? High-carb diets may be only high in starchy tubers and fruits, which as far as I know haven't screwed any lives yet. And I'm equally passionate about eliminating useless restrictions that don't help anybody. If you go to any low-carb forum, you'll see that the number of people who succeed in losing weight and keeping the weight off is minuscule, because some people (e.g. me) get horrible cravings on a low-carb diet. These people are afraid of eating a strawberry, then they fall off the wagon and eat a pint of ice cream and a whole cake. Wouldn't they be healthier had they satisfied their carb cravings with wholesome food? But they won't, because of the low-carb dogma. To a lot of people (e.g. Griff), carbs are grains and sugar, which are no different than fruit and root vegetables. And to others still, healthy food is low-carb food, including soy products, low-carb tortillas and Dreamfields pasta. So I think it's important to stop villifying all carbs. Less restrictions = more satisfied people on easier-to-follow diets. I would still weigh 200 lb if I were trying to do Atkins and falling off the wagon constantly. But add fruits and starchy tubers back = almost 60 lb lost.
            Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
            Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
            No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
            Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Grol View Post
              I'm hyperglycemic, pre diabetic, high blood sugar problems. The exact opposite. I have always had borderline high blood sugar.
              A lot of people who have hyperglycaemia also have hypoglycaemia. My aunt, for instance. She's prediabetic too. According to her, once she starts eating, she can't stop, but I don't think she's an addict. IMO you two just have a screwed-up carbohydrate metabolism.
              Originally posted by Grol View Post
              If it was just cravings then I would agree. I am talking about withdrawals, massive headaches, insomnia, flu like symptoms.
              Headaches are a classic symptom of hypoglicaemia. It would be interesting if you could measure your blood sugar when you have a headache. Insomnia may be caused by adrenaline discharges by the adrenal glands, which are also a reaction to hypoglicaemia. Although I don't like Matt Stone in general, this is an interesting post: The Catecholamine Honeymoon. Not sure about flu like symptoms. Do you also have them when you just fast?
              Originally posted by Grol View Post
              Is there a low fat flu?
              I didn't have low-fat flu, but I never had low-carb flu either.
              Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
              Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
              No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
              Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

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              • #67
                Mirrorball:

                Why are you spending your time at a forum with which you disagree so much? I don't think most people here are trying to "convert" others. I think most people here are like me: happy to have made a dietary/lifestyle change that makes ME feel good.

                I'm not going to go to a vegan forum and argue with their choices. Their choices are about them, not me.

                I think you might benefit from this mindset.
                Because if you didn't know, of that is life made: only of moments; Don't lose the now.
                ~Borges

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                • #68
                  I measure my blood sugar all the time (almost every morning), but especially when I have a headache. Pre PB it was running in the low 100s to as high as 120 (fasted). Now it is always between 85 and 95, the headaches have come after sugar consumption but the tests have suggested another issue because the #s don't signify anything. They might be 85 with or without a headache; they might be 95. . Also, my blood pressure has gone from a typical 145-110 to 115-75, which is very good news for me. Thank god I have only experienced the headaches twice since turning primal, BOTH times after sugar indulgences.

                  I don't like Matt Stone much either and in re: to his catecholamine post, none of it seems to apply to me. I am being very conscientious of possible adrenal issues, but I am again experiencing the opposite of what he describes. I halfway wish I had some of the symptoms.

                  It's great that you didn't experience low carb flu. Sounds like YOU weren't addicted to sugar. But many do. Some can consume alcohol and many cannot.

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                  • #69
                    say rahhh,

                    I think Mirrorball having some contradictory opinions is great for the community. We cannot be sure everything we're doing or stating is correct. MB is a low carber, one of us, just with a few opinions that differ. I am developing a few of my own and will probably come across the same if what I am reading and believing becomes a debated topic.

                    For example: I think the omega fatty acid story is far from complete and O3 may is inflammatory (more often than most would like to hear). Or, I think easing up on the saturated fats might be a good idea. So MB doesn't buy the idea that sugar is an addiction. That's cool. As a society we do tend to lean on bad habits and behaviors being diseases and addictions as an excuse removed from personal responsibility a little too much.

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                    • #70
                      I agree, Grol. I don't need to surround myself with like-minded people only. But I find that I tend to lose patience with people whose primary goal appears to be contrariness.
                      Because if you didn't know, of that is life made: only of moments; Don't lose the now.
                      ~Borges

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by say_rahhh View Post
                        Why are you spending your time at a forum with which you disagree so much?
                        Huh? I follow the Primal Blueprint without dairy even almost 100% of the time. I just don't restrict carbs. Is the Primal Blueprint just another low-carb diet? I don't think so, I think it's about eating and exercising like our ancestors did, which I'm trying to do as best as I can.
                        Originally posted by say_rahhh View Post
                        I don't think most people here are trying to "convert" others.
                        But this is a thread about possible errors in GCBC. What else are we supposed to discuss?
                        Originally posted by Grol View Post
                        Thank god I have only experienced the headaches twice since turning primal, BOTH times after sugar indulgences.
                        Reactive hypoglycaemia? :P
                        Originally posted by Grol View Post
                        Sounds like YOU weren't addicted to sugar. But many do. Some can consume alcohol and many cannot.
                        A lot of times I've behaved like an addict, trying to stop eating carbs, experiencing horrible cravings and a few days later binging on sugar. But now I know that I can eat cake if necessary (birthday party) and not experience any cravings as long as I'm eating enough (added-sugar-free) carbs. I don't have any will power to resist anything, which is why I've never messed with any addictive substance and I almost never drink (there are alcoholics in my family). Healthy carbs help me be healthy, because I can eat almost anything I crave. If I want something sweet, I can have fruit. If I want grains, I can have tubers. If I want dairy ... I go hungry.
                        Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
                        Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
                        No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
                        Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I'm cool with primal carbs. Not everyone has to be in ketosis to be happy and healthy. Will ketosis help us live longer? I don't know. I wonder if we should do a summer/fall higher carb season and a winter/spring ketogenic season. I bet there are hormonal benefits from the variety.

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                          • #73
                            so just a curveball in here for a second... I'm reading GCBC, page 55 (yes, yes, I'm a slow reader, its heavy stuff) and they talk about the men in puerto rico and honolulu who remained free of heart disease seemed to eat more starches ... thoughts. and yes, clearly I have a long way to go in the book.

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                            • #74
                              Taubes particularly vilifies "refined carbs" meaning sugar and flour, and all of his examples of traditional cultures adopting refined carbs and becoming sick are of sugar and white flour, not necessarily just starch. It is an injustice to say that simply "starch" is profoundly disease-causing in and of itself, it is simply not true. It can be in the context of lots of inflammation and various nutritional deficiencies as are found in industrial nations, but when the seed oils are scarce and the soil is nutrient-rich it doesn't appear to cause all of those maladies. Now whether or not "good" carbs make for optimal longevity and vitality is questionable, but they're simply not going to cause syndrome x on their own.

                              Here
                              , Stephan makes the point that we NEED excess eicosanoid action to become insulin resistant. And in another post he mentions that magnesium deficiency is also a cause, but there is no evidence that simply starch is bad on its own under all of the other favorable conditions. I don't think that it is optimal to go that hard on the starch but it clearly isn't completely and utterly deadly. Wheat and sugar are, though and Taubes mainly focuses on that.
                              Last edited by Stabby; 07-04-2010, 09:40 PM.
                              Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

                              Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by couch handy View Post
                                Well then if you haven't read it, you aren't really qualified to critique it are you? The studies are cited in the book...I would do your homework for you in the spirit of charity but I've loaned my copy out. The studies I referred to were not "self reporting" but were actually controlled studies taking place on hospital wards. If memory serves:
                                Example: 1st group: calorie reduced/balanced diet of 1300Kc (carb, protein and fat)
                                2nd group: calorie reduced/ protein, fat, no carb 1300Kc (fat replaces carb )
                                3rd group: unlimited calories/protein, fat, no carb

                                Over the course of the study, patients in the first group lost the least weight. Patients in the second group lost the most weight, and patients in the 3rd group lost almost as much weight as the patients in the second group. These results were duplicated and peer reviewed and published. Unlike the two studies (and I think there are only two) by Jean Meyer (upon which our entire exercise/health club/personal trainer/public health policy is based) which have never been replicated.

                                As far as your declaration that Taubes is far from being a scientist, he has degrees in Physics and Aerospace Engineering and a masters in Journalism and has received numerous awards including acknowledgments from MIT and the National Association of Science Writers. What awards have you recieved for excellent science writing of late? Perhaps in real life you are actually qualified to challenge his credentials and integrity. I'm certainly not. You aren't miffed that he ripped on Cold Fusion in one of his earlier books are you?
                                Sorry couch handy if it sounded like I haven't read his book, I have. I was a fan originally, not for the criticism today obviously but because it was a decent book about nutrition and the science of nutrition......I was a bit of a nutritional nerd back then... Looking back now I must admit, I was influenced quite easily with any nutritional discovery and found myself hypothesizing continually based around any new knowledge. The big problem with that was how it conflicted with other new data...... and continues to this day, so now I'm quite skeptical. I look at things quite differently now. My basic problem with Gary is he dismisses the mountains of conflicting similar data from the age old mostly sketchy data he's found acceptable for his hypothesis and doesn't site any current data which would be based on the doubly labeled water method, and for good reason, there isn't any. I wasn't sold on the 1980 study which is a cornerstone in his hypothesis that showed obese people ate less than lean people and that carbs cause their obesity......we would need to see multiple well controlled data sources that show accumulative adipose tissue in a hypo caloric diet where the carbs are the causation...... he talks about glucose/insulin effect on glycerol-3-phosphate when in fact glyceroneogenesis is another pathway for fat storage in the absence of carbs, which he sidesteps completely or doesn't address for whatever reason. I've always found in the past that anytime I take an all or nothing stance on some point of nutrition, like Gary has in basically telling the world that it's not your fault that your fat and all you have to do is give up carbs and it's not about calories, is not very scientific at all. In my opinion of course. I was thinking that if protein is kept constant (at say 35%) and where some carbs replaced some fat that TEF would be increased, and could show a metabolic advantage for adding carbs into a low carb diet..... and actually burn more calories......of course this would mean that calories do count...........food for thought.
                                Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

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