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  • #16
    1



    LOL, I just realised I sound like a dairy advocate... And I DO like milk, but I totally agree with Mark: as long as it is in the form of good quality organic products, in moderation and of course IF and only IF your body tolerates it.

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    • #17
      1



      Dairy is my #1 love and always has been. Its the only thing stopping me from being totally primal. I think I will try to cut out the dairy soon, but right now... I dont think I could take it. I get great raw jersey milk (1gal/week) and make yogurt out of it and such. I think maybe I'll try to drop down to 1/2gal/week, and see how that goes. Baby steps, right? Its like saying goodbye to an old friend, as cheesy as that sounds. AND now I just realized the "cheesy" pun too. Help me.

      Life on Earth may be punishing, but it includes an annual free trip around the sun!

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      • #18
        1



        Tell me about it! I love milk way too much. When I'm not eating sugar from carbs a big cup of whole milk tastes like the best vanilla ice cream in the world!

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        • #19
          1



          I can't stand milk. But I LOVE cheese. Any kind. I live in Spain and have family in Italy... So there's good quality and CHEAP cheese everywhere for me. Parmigiano reggiano, manchego, mascarpone... I could live on cheese and broccoli.


          I really used to be ADDICTED to de damned thing. That is, before going paleo. It didn't surprise me when I read that opiates hide inside caseine... So the cheese addiction is a bit more than metaphorical...

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          • #20
            1



            my ND (a paleo proponant) is trying to get me to drop all dairy (unsuccessfully so far- but I don't even eat that much! and it's always raw and/or local, goat or sheep's milk etc) as she says it inhibits weight loss. Thing is, I went dairy free a few summers ago & it made no difference (other than making me sad). I'm with Lekressin & 62Shelby- doing the best I can on the PB without losing any fat or gaining any muscle. It's so frustrating!

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            • #21
              1



              Hey marci! I am trying to lose weight too. I have been almost-paleo (but the dairy) for years, and have put on weight (not being able to be physically active = me getting nervous and eating) having all these healthy foods. I am on the first weeks of actually trying to lose the fat.


              In the past (before paleo) I was able to drop 20 lbs and maintain a weight of 102 lbs and 12% BF (I am a girl) eating cheese on a daily basis (cottage cheese was sacred for dinner, as oatmeal was for breakfast).


              My take on the issue is: no matter which "diet" you try, ultimately it's a matter of calories in vs calories out, which doesn't mean that the source of this calories it's not important.


              It is true that some people are sensitive to milk proteins (or grain proteins) and they may have a harder time losing weight while eating dairy, but I don't think it makes it impossible. I mean, completely blocking fat loss even in a calorie deficit? Wow...


              It looks like the reverse thing happens with nuts... You can get away with eating more nuts and not putting on that much fat... But I don't think you can stuff yourself on 100,000 kcal of walnuts and not store them as fat. Maybe you'd put on less than if you have 10,000 kcal of pizza or ben & jerry's... But calories DO matter!


              So what I am actually doing is: WEIGHING my food to make sure I am actually in a deficit. WEIGHING myself to see if it's going down on the desired rate. The moment it looks like it's slow with no reason, it will mean it's time for a little clinical trial (n=1) "let's cut out dairy and see what happens".

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              • #22
                1



                hey Marci, commiserations. I wonder if, for some of us that it takes us quite a bit longer. I did a huge cycling tour in Europe about eight years ago. when I started I was in poor shape. you would have expected me to start dropping weight immediately but it took six weeks or more and then it fell off. I was riding min 75kms per day with 30kgms of weight on my bike through mountains etc. of course I was eating about 4000 cals per day, mostly carbs .


                wonder if this isnt a bit the same in terms of time the body takes to adapt? has your ND looked at liver issues or adrenal fatigue or heavy metal load, as these have been suggested to me.


                I had a look at the turbulence training site via Brad Pilon yesterday. TT has a competition and some of the before and afters of the women are astounding. maybe we need a programme something like that?


                http://www.transformationcontest.com/

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                • #23
                  1



                  Twisteddoc & 62Shelby- thank you both for your excellent comments. I'm sure they will benefit more PBers who may be dealing with the same!

                  What's annoying is I have a primal workout, too - my ND's bf is a personal trainer & he developed a 6 -week workout for me, which we adjust after that time has passed. No more than 45 minutes at a time, following all that Mark recommends. My problem might be that I was a chronic cardio junkie & vegetarian for 20 years...well if this weight ever comes off I'm buying drinks for everyone on the MDA (lol)!


                  Sheby- I am estrogen dominant - don't think that helps. Just had a physical with my allopathic doc, everything looks ok but he'll send the results to my ND so she can scrutinize further...maybe what she'll see is an adrenal or thyroid issue to correct.


                  Twisted- 12% bodyfat is amazing! I hear you on the dairy then I read in the Paleo book that Cordain cautions against eating more than a small handful of nuts a day to lose weight. Argh! It's like there's nothing left to eat but meat & veggies and that gets a little same-y.


                  Thanks to you both again for your help!

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                  • #24
                    1

                    [quote]

                    But I don't think you can stuff yourself on 100,000 kcal of walnuts and not store them as fat. Maybe you'd put on less than if you have 10,000 kcal of pizza or ben & jerry's... But calories DO matter!
                    </blockquote>


                    Calories from carbs matter.


                    Calories from fat do NOT matter. Read 'Good calorie bad calories' to learn how calories work.


                    I know someone (and checked their complete food log) who steadily lost weight, while eating 5000 calories a day (90% fat) with no exercise. They struggled to eat that much food, as it was well over being 'full'. Dairy did cause stalls and removing dairy resumed good weight loss.


                    Calorific deficit tells your body that you can not get enough food and it will try to hang onto fat as much as possible. It is a terrible way to try and lose weight.

                    The "Seven Deadly Sins"

                    Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . . Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
                    Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
                    Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

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                    • #25
                      1



                      Tarlach-Wow, that is an impressive study done, losing weight on 5000 calories a day. I've always wondered how that would affect our bodies, but didn't want to conduct that experiment on myself. I'm gonna have to get that book "Good Calories Bad Calories," sounds like it goes more in depth in the Biochemistry realm than Mark's book did.

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                      • #26
                        1



                        It was a fantastic experiment to see the data from. It firmly proved that you can lose weight without going into calorific deficit.


                        I would much rather eat steak and sit on the couch to lose weight. Much better than being permanently hungry and try to force the body to burn the fat it is desperately trying to retain for survival.

                        The "Seven Deadly Sins"

                        Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . . Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
                        Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
                        Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

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                        • #27
                          1



                          Sweet! I agree, I could eat steak all day...now with this study having been done I am trying to justify it, lol.

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                          • #28
                            1



                            I think everyone is different and at different stages of our lives we react differently to nutrition and exercise, its partially genetic, and partially historic (ie what you have been doing to your body and how long you have been doing it),so to say that if you eat a diet of 90% fat you will lose fat, is in my opinion, too sweeping. If you have any metabolic issues or deranged hormone cascades this probably isnt the best Px. I am certainly not advocating carb abuse, but at some point if you are having metabolic issues etc, sluggish liver, ALL calories count.

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                            • #29
                              1



                              Tarlach, i have read GCBC, I just don't agree with everything Tabues says. Specially the "calories from fat don't matter". Those kinds of generalizations are hard for me suck, specially because he DOESN'T provide evidence of it.


                              I believe fat intake increases fat metabolism. But it burns off primarly fats from diet, not fat already stored on tissue. Energy balance has to be negative for that to happen.


                              Taubes has great ideas about what has happened in general on the population, but you can't translate it to individuals. It's like taking epidemiological studies and make causative conclusions about certain diseases - it doesn't work that way IMHO.

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                              • #30
                                1



                                Tarlach, in Primal Body - Primal Mind, the author mentions a study done by a couple british guys where they put people on a 1,000 cal/day diet of 90% fat. 5 meals, every 4 hours, 200 cal each. The weight melted off and the subjects didn't feel deprived.


                                It's interesting to see both sides of the spectrum; a 5,000 cal diet and 1,000 cal diet, both 90% fat, having the same fat loss effect. It clearly wasn't the low calorie count melting the weight off. It was the fat.

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