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Anyone know of any off the grid primal communities?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sakitumi Puppet View Post
    L:OL see for example, what sorta adults will be produced from the kids whose first impressions of togetherness is when their dads friends came over for that big butchering holiday?
    I don't think I understand what you're trying to say...that families can't have togetherness and happy times cause they butcher meat together? LAURA INGALLS WAS NOT A LIAR SIR

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sakitumi Puppet View Post
      I imagine that you would have a problem reconciling raising kids to murder animals with keeping a society not based on property ownership together.
      So off grid communities are inherently Communist? Rofl i don't understand what you wrote

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
        Believe it or not many traditional cultures do celebrate butchering day and the kids grow up to be well adjusted adults who know where their food comes from. Not every culture is raised on Disney.
        believe it or not many traditional cultures suck and reliably produce people who flee them for freer ones.

        I don't think I understand what you're trying to say...that families can't have togetherness and happy times cause they butcher meat together?
        no that such impressions of togetherness, ("it's murder time!") will create a culture of twisted people bent on dominating each other, which is the opposite of the intent of an alternative community.

        So off grid communities are inherently Communist? Rofl i don't understand what you wrote
        Yes or else what you are all really envisioning is a vacation resort.

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        • #19
          Which for the record is a more realistic manifestation of the Primal meme.

          also UrbanForager, a kid KNOWING, "My meat gets murdered after we support feeding it," is probably...more likely to use violence against people to get what they want, not less. They have internalized more deeply and consciously a social order that is built out of a pyramid of aggression and deliberately justify it to themselves

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sakitumi Puppet View Post
            Which for the record is a more realistic manifestation of the Primal meme.

            also UrbanForager, a kid KNOWING, "My meat gets murdered after we support feeding it," is probably...more likely to use violence against people to get what they want, not less. They have internalized more deeply and consciously a social order that is built out of a pyramid of aggression and deliberately justify it to themselves

            Well i suppose that could be a problem if a kid grew up not learning the diff between butchering an animal for meaty survival and butchering his own Mom for five bucks

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sakitumi Puppet View Post
              also UrbanForager, a kid KNOWING, "My meat gets murdered after we support feeding it," is probably...more likely to use violence against people to get what they want, not less. They have internalized more deeply and consciously a social order that is built out of a pyramid of aggression and deliberately justify it to themselves
              Nice hypothesis, but that wasn't my experience. 10 year old me had to deal with this after my family ate Curly, one of my show pigs that didn't do well at the county fair. I just realized that he tasted really good, that I shouldn't name animals that would become food, and that humans and animals have different roles to play in the world.
              In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sakitumi Puppet View Post
                Which for the record is a more realistic manifestation of the Primal meme.

                also UrbanForager, a kid KNOWING, "My meat gets murdered after we support feeding it," is probably...more likely to use violence against people to get what they want, not less. They have internalized more deeply and consciously a social order that is built out of a pyramid of aggression and deliberately justify it to themselves
                You really are too funny, hitten the spleef hard these days are you?

                Just for the record we've raised and eaten pigs, rabbits and chickens (and bees too but we don't eat them!) and my son is so far from a violent aggressive teen.

                BTW if you're going to name an animal you plan on eating give it an appropriate name, my son named one rooster Mr. Fricassee.
                Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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                • #23
                  My guess having known people who raise/hunt/fish for their own food and butcher it, or hire the prof'l butcher for larger animals, is that they have a lot more respect for life than people who buy their food in the relatively sterile grocery store environment. There is much less of the concept of "offal" and more of respecting the animal and eating and/or wearing all of it.

                  I'm sure an epiphany can come in many forms, but one dead cat doesn't change the natural order of things. One can try to claim that voluntarily taking a lower place on the food chain makes one somehow more spiritual, but it really doesn't. Lost in the woods, the person eating what they catch, from bugs to a slow moving squirrel, has more of a chance of actually being alive when the rescue party shows up than the person who eats leaves and grass. Not to mention that you're probably more prone to getting poisoned from a plant you don't know than from an animal.

                  UF mentioned Disney which resonates with me as I had an Ecology professor who called it the Bambi complex. IOW, we don't want to eat the cutey patooty aminals we see in animated movies.

                  As a note, murder has a specific definition and that is the killing of one human by another. By definition, we don't murder animals, we kill them. Not knowing the difference is perhaps more dangerous than eating animals.

                  What led our ancestors to hunt? Surely it was easier to just roam around and stuff their faces full of plants. But they weren't made mentally ill by the idea that eating another animal was "wrong." It was merely "food."

                  Besides, I get really queasy when I bite into a carrot and I can hear it scream.
                  "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                  B*tch-lite

                  Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sakitumi Puppet View Post
                    I imagine that you would have a problem reconciling raising kids to murder animals with keeping a society not based on property ownership together.
                    I take it you weren't exposed much to farm life or hunting, were you?

                    Witnessing/participating in the death of an animal for the purposes of food makes you have a tremendous amount of respect for nature and life in general. I wouldn't force your children to watch, but if they want to watch they should be allowed (and participate once they get old enough). They are, however, watching the parent too and when they see the respect you have, they'll behave accordingly. My children won't even smack a bug because they are learning to have respect for life and not waste it needlessly.

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                    • #25
                      I just read a children's picture book to one of mine titled "Energy Island". Come to find out, one Danish island's communities have become energy independent and they built an academy of sorts where folks from the world over can learn and exchange ideas and info. The island is "Samso" (with that slanted strike through the o, but my keyboard doesn't do that), and the energy academy is found at Energiakademiet.dk - Viden og erfaringer omkring vedvarende energi, lots in English.

                      According to the book, all projects were funded by the islanders, not the government. They have a neat combo of wind, biomass, biodiesel. Dunno what is left that is still using fossil fuels, but their next push is to totally rid the island of fossil fuels. Hope this is in someway helpful.
                      I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Crabbcakes View Post
                        I just read a children's picture book to one of mine titled "Energy Island". Come to find out, one Danish island's communities have become energy independent and they built an academy of sorts where folks from the world over can learn and exchange ideas and info. The island is "Samso" (with that slanted strike through the o, but my keyboard doesn't do that), and the energy academy is found at Energiakademiet.dk - Viden og erfaringer omkring vedvarende energi, lots in English.

                        According to the book, all projects were funded by the islanders, not the government. They have a neat combo of wind, biomass, biodiesel. Dunno what is left that is still using fossil fuels, but their next push is to totally rid the island of fossil fuels. Hope this is in someway helpful.
                        Very interesting, thanks Crabbcakes! I'm going to do some research on this.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
                          Besides, I get really queasy when I bite into a carrot and I can hear it scream.
                          There's a song about this by The Arrogant Worms. It's called carrot juice constitutes murder.

                          Anyway, if watching your food being prepared turns you into a homicidal maniac who's prone to go on a killing spree because your used to seeing the "murder" of something you previously prioritised as keeping alive.. I very much doubt there would be many people in the world today as you don't have to go back very far in time to when butchering your own meat was normal.

                          Let alone the threat from all the farm raised little psychopaths running around these days..

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                          • #28
                            As is typical in my experience, everyone leaps right to some ludicrous image of wanton murder when I talk about violence, and does not even try and grasp regular violence at play in all kinds of relationship dynamics, almost all of which serves to justify and maintain the hierarchies that maintain the property that is designed to exploit and diminish the bulk of mankind for the benefit of the few.

                            I am glad that so many people are discussing something though, so I will take a crack back (though I work overnight, and am tired at the moment, and it will be sub-par and necessitate returning after sleeping)

                            Jefferson1775 Nice hypothesis, but that wasn't my experience. 10 year old me had to deal with this after my family ate Curly, one of my show pigs that didn't do well at the county fair. I just realized that he tasted really good, that I shouldn't name animals that would become food, and that humans and animals have different roles to play in the world.
                            So the fact that you as a helpless child were "encouraged" (all children are implictly always forced to do everything, so we should probably first accept that) to eat your pet doesn't resonate at all with you as something disgusting that your parents did to you? "I just realized it tasted good." LOL That's mommy's good little boy.

                            and the last part is exactly what I mean about how violence against animals necessarily develops an authoritarian and hierarchal worldview. Every single regime and movement that organizes humans so as to harm each other agrees with your assessment about a vague and ludicrous notion of such "roles."

                            Also, you know that people are animals right?

                            urbanforager
                            You really are too funny, hitten the spleef hard these days are you?
                            lol no harder than usual- I still get high every day though

                            Just for the record we've raised and eaten pigs, rabbits and chickens (and bees too but we don't eat them!) and my son is so far from a violent aggressive teen.

                            BTW if you're going to name an animal you plan on eating give it an appropriate name, my son named one rooster Mr. Fricassee.
                            So it's not violent or aggressive behavior to dismiss something's interests so as to amuse your mother's prejudice? I call it...gay? I don't know if there's yet a word in English for this sentiment that is already twice invoked in one page, this odd and obsessive relationship between mothers and children and imposing and maintaining dominance hierarchies.

                            Also that anecdote is actually stomach-turning and disgusting in the most fundamental ways I can imagine. LOL I will check back in about the boy in a few years.

                            joaniel My guess having known people who raise/hunt/fish for their own food and butcher it, or hire the prof'l butcher for larger animals, is that they have a lot more respect for life than people who buy their food in the relatively sterile grocery store environment. There is much less of the concept of "offal" and more of respecting the animal and eating and/or wearing all of it.
                            I just straight disagree with this; I have never had a sensation that people call "respect" for something and then concluded, "but, fuck that thing- let's kill and eat it." I don't think that respect is the right word- mystical (in the irrational, superstitious, magical-thinking sense) infatuation maybe. Like a totemist idolatry.

                            Also contempt is the best seasoning, so imagining lower humans who do not get to experience murder-exilaration as eating inferior animal products is very likely a strong psychological component of such "respect."

                            I'm sure an epiphany can come in many forms, but one dead cat doesn't change the natural order of things.
                            here we go with my aforementioned assertion, that violence against animals lays the psychological groundwork for accepting and maintaining the ruling class dominance pyramid. Some stuff is born to suffer for your gratification.

                            Nothing weird or gross about that idea!

                            One can try to claim that voluntarily taking a lower place on the food chain makes one somehow more spiritual, but it really doesn't.
                            This sentiment here is actually one of my main motivational systems in abstaining from animals as a food source: how meat-eaters talk like they are on some higher plane than other people.

                            Where is the top of a chain? Why do people even have an idea in their mind of something being at the "top" of a CHAIN? (because of a lifetime of immersion in the unchallenged exploitation of animals, actually)

                            I also reject the implication of the word "spiritual" because nothing in my life has ever led me to believe that I, or anyone that I have ever met, is capable of anything except regular-ass sense impressions from their regular-ass cellular body. So in that sense, yes, removing systematic animal torture as a source of your well-being IS "more spiritual" in that it removes from your psyche the idea (though it goes in most unrecognized consciously and unchallenged) that you are the cause of suffering. Somewhere under the false bravado and mommy-making-good-strong-boys masquerade there must necessarily be a part of your cognitive life that says, "this is a little fucked up." Unless you are a sociopath and the suffering of others causes no observable affect in your brain.

                            Lost in the woods, the person eating what they catch, from bugs to a slow moving squirrel, has more of a chance of actually being alive when the rescue party shows up than the person who eats leaves and grass. Not to mention that you're probably more prone to getting poisoned from a plant you don't know than from an animal.
                            But since I have a cable modem and a cell phone and a job, this is 100% irrelevant to me and my life, and also to your own. I am not even talking about humans hunting to survive, I am talking about humans dedicating property to the raising and care of animals that they then kill.

                            UF mentioned Disney which resonates with me as I had an Ecology professor who called it the Bambi complex. IOW, we don't want to eat the cutey patooty aminals we see in animated movies.
                            I think that lobsters are cute- anything that behaves as though getting impressions from its environment and advancing its own interests is adorable to me truly.

                            As a note, murder has a specific definition and that is the killing of one human by another. By definition, we don't murder animals, we kill them.
                            So your argument against my assertion that violence against animals causes subtle threats to emerge to the social order is that the blood and bleeting and resistance is not called murder by a royal-academy sanctioned dictionary?

                            No dominance hierarchies there...

                            What led our ancestors to hunt?
                            We can talk about ancestral hunting in a different light, because the people doing that lived within a given ecosystem as a part of it. I am not saying that neanderthals were pieces of shit for feeding their kids elk that the adults stalked and killed with weapons made of other animal parts and rocks.

                            Surely it was easier to just roam around and stuff their faces full of plants. But they weren't made mentally ill by the idea that eating another animal was "wrong." It was merely "food."
                            I'm quite sure that you are not correct about that; I don't think that primitive man thought of competing animal species with mystical (in the same sense previously defined) powers as "merely" anything, and everythere there remains evidence that the act of killing and eating was conceived as a magical rite.

                            As in they were fuckin dumb as balls, to be honest.

                            Besides, I get really queasy when I bite into a carrot and I can hear it scream.
                            haha i do feel bad killing plants too. I am an 80/20'er too- 4/5 of what I eat comes from fruit that plants want you to eat. I try to keep it at 100% but it's just too fuckin impossible because it rots too fast to stockpile, and I am not free to go buy any except weekly.

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                            • #29
                              haha anyway, my initial point was that no such commuity will arise that could maintain itself for more than a generation or two. If I had money, I would bet on a primal resort though.

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                              • #30
                                A great idea: let's give the thread back to Canuck!

                                Monsieur Canuck, you should explore co-housing communities as a concept. While not off grid (necessarily) or primal, there are aspects that get at the concept you asked for input on. There is a nice efficiency in not everyone having to own a lawn mower, root tiller, chicken coop, workshop, pickup truck, etc. and most co-housing communities naturally embrace energy efficiency and related sustainability concepts.

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