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  • #16
    That used to be my rationale for being a vegetarian that ate fish. I didn't feel capable of killing an animal, except that I had done a lot of fishing growing up so I knew I was capable of that. So I was a vegetarian that ate fish now and then.

    I suppose these days, outside the basic health concepts for eating paleo, I feel strongly about avoiding grains and soy because I do not want to support those industries. I feel bad when I support the CAFO meat producers these days, but at least I'm not contributing as much anymore to all that is wrong about corn, soy and wheat.

    I can't be perfect. I can't make myself crazy trying to be perfect either. But at least I can say no those who would poison both me and the planet with their beans and grains. And hopefully in my efforts I can say no to those in the future who would further poison me with their pills.

    Whatever. Hypocrisy abounds in all of us. At some point we just have to be human and let it go.
    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jenry Hennings View Post
      I've mentioned the !Kung tribe a few times before, and after every kill, a ritual of thanks takes place, but all H/G tribes honour and respect the lives they take for the rewards they bring.
      I like the idea a lot, it would be great if we all respected the animals we eat a lot more. I don't think it necessarily follows that everyone should kill their own dinner though; I think even in very primitive tribes only certain members would perform the hunting, even if it was all the adult males etc. So the others were in a very similar position to us, in that the meat was provided by someone else. I guess, then, its our responsibility to try and make sure as best we can that the people providing are properly respecting our food on our behalf. Which brings me to the position I think a lot of people here have, which is to avoid feedlot animals etc and seek out free range etc.

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      • #18
        This seems like an appropriate place for this link:

        Kalahari Killers - YouTube
        Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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        • #19
          I would like to think that the situation I have locally is pretty similar to what HAD been the way human food was processed and obtained for millenia....

          -- The next home down from mine, several miles away, is a younger couple with two small children. They own a chicken farm, a BIG one, and they have a lot of old fruit trees like blueberry, strawberry, etc. The wife spends a lot of time at home with the kids, thus she has a lot of fruit stuff I'd never have time to make. The husband owns a saw mill, so he is the go to for almost any building material you need.
          -- Another older couple own several cows, and it is his full-time job to milk them and raise them, some for meat.
          -- An old lady at the library makes butter, cream, and all form of processed dairy. Her cheddar is knock your socks off.
          -- Young couple that lives literally in the middle of the forest, WALKING to their home a quarter mile from the dirt path every day with a little girl, he spends almost every weekend fishing. It is pretty much his #1,#2, and #3 hobby. Ironically enough, his wife hunts a lot of small game.

          Myself, I get 2-3 commodities that none of these others can get on their own:
          1) Large game, such as bear, deer, or moose.
          2) Fowl, such as ducks, wild turkeys, grouse, etc.
          3) Rabbits. I raise them myself....

          It is pretty simple, and I think it is what humans did for a really long time: I trade these things for the other stuff I either don't have the time or knowledge to get myself. I also have a big veg garden (zero fruit, but that may change this year), and I make an effort to grow things they don't have.

          Between my own efforts and a group of about a dozen people, I can easily afford to never go to the real "store". I even grow my own herbs and spices.

          The really painful truth is not that most people are separated just from their food, which they clearly are, but that they are separated from any skills or realities that go with the natural world. Most vegetarians have not witnessed what it takes to level a field to grow something on, the death you must bring to grow much of anything, just as they cannot fathom an animal death......I have seen deer ripped into pieces, alive, by wolves and coyotes. I have walked the woods in March and seen their skelatons in rows, starving to death together 2-3 at a time.....most people are completely distanced from any semblance of connection to nature, or real nature.

          For so many city-people I know (I was one for years through school), their view of nature is this sweet honeydew of a place with frolicking animals, flowers in bloom, etc. It is compassionate, fair, humane.....for me, nature is the force that brings death, brings starvation or freezing to death, all in a BARELY equal measure to its astonishing beauty....the reality is that most people, even people that consider themselves "connected" to nature, have humanized nature. They have made it into what they want it to be, not what it truly is.

          There is a lot of high-minded talk about "Respect" for nature, but is very often their humanized nature....true respect for it comes not just in it providing for you, but in your acknowledgement that it has SPARED you, for another day at least. It comes from understanding and being able to face up to your impact on nature, the death you must walk with in order to live, not stow it in far away places or create myths about how you can magically have no impact. Without this respect from both ends, it is a fake respect to me.

          In my area, there have been many conservation studies on the lives of animals such as deer. One of the shocking things they have found, and a man named Tovar Cerulli has written brilliantly about it, is just how efficiently deadly nature truly is.....as an example, they have found that the 3-year survival rate of deer, even once hunting deaths are removed, is about 24%....Read that again. That means that 3/4 of all the cute little deer fawns do not make it to age 3. Many starve or are killed by predators.

          It is easy for a lot of people that have not spent a lot of time actually in unsheltered nature to build up this image, but I do not have to participate in that delusion. The reality is that the 2 year old male deer in my freezer downstairs had a high probability of being either eaten alive or starving/freezing to death, so my .300 bullet through his chest killing him almost instantly was a vast improvement. Humans, through an unimaginable amount of work, are able to sometimes get old with dignity and die of simple age.....nature doesn't play that game. Nature cuts your throat the second a stronger animal is around to take your place. There is no deer Medicare

          It's a paradigm of thinking that would take a novel to fully explain, but I have learned that a lot of people have no idea what nature really is. We are separated from real nature, real humanity, real skills that keep us separated from it, all to a point that will never be fully redeemed. It is all incredibly clear.

          At least here I can put these thoughts down without 100% blank stares of confusion, which is what the average vegetarian gives me.
          Last edited by TheyCallMeLazarus; 12-28-2013, 08:34 PM.
          "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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          • #20
            Lazarus I wish I lived in a community like that.
            The closest we have come was swapping 1kg honey for a dozen fertile eggs (8 hatched, 7 still alive, can tell 2 are roosters so far &#128523.

            Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app

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            • #21
              Excellent post from lazarus.

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              • #22
                Tell me more about this young couple who have to walk a trail to get to their home. That's what I want to have. Where do you find a place that will allow that?
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • #23
                  @ SB

                  The guy is about as "Vermont Stereotype" as you could get....a big black beard, huge glasses, wears a lot of plaid, hands that when you shake them it feels like you are grabbing a leather jacket that was left outside for several months. His wife is actually very pretty, to the point that I'm sure a lot of people double-take when they are together. It looks like this dainty princess walking around with a guy that eats bark She cleans a rabbit though faster than I have ever seen. It goes from rabbit to meat in about 25 seconds. I timed her. Beautiful.

                  Their home is actually off of a snowmobile trail, called the VAST here, so in the winter they leave their truck at the road, snowmobile to the house, then walk up the hill. Keep in mind they have a toddler, with another on the way.They are hardcore.

                  Mainly, you have to buy land that is open-zoning. Up where I am, this is probably 90% of it, but I know that in a lot of cities and suburbs there are a lot of rules....they will actually FORCE YOU to hook it into the grid, get municipal water, all to fit their "zoning" requirement. No one mentions this in all of their "freedom" talk. I understand the need for strict zoning within a city, but a lot of it is wanting to force even rural areas to get in line....here we don't have that problem. My state representative from my area lives on a 100+ acre apple farm with no electricity.

                  1) Buy a piece of open-zoning land. It will usually be really cheap, because very few people want land with nothing nearby. I recently bought 55 acres for 36k, as I plan on putting a hunting cabin up there.
                  2) Find a contractor that builds material homes. This means they will supply only the materials needed to build the home, and you get the actual builder separately. This will save a LOT of money, especially if you are able to do some of it yourself or have any friends in construction. Even without that, a straight builder won't cost that much compared to what most people pay for a finished house.
                  3) Build a well and get a power source. Clear some space if you need for the house.

                  I used these two companies for my land and home. Obviously I don't know the reputable people in CA, but I can't imagine these kind of companies don't exist:
                  Land for Sale, Vermont Farms for Sale, Vermont Ranches for Sale, Acreage - Vermont
                  Coventry Log Homes | Log Homes, Log Home Kits, &amp Prices | Website

                  Best decision I ever made.
                  "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
                    And, examining hunting, is it fair to use a gun? If we take it further, shouldn't the most advanced method we use be a cross bow? And what about the elderly or disabled? If unable to hunt, no meat for them?
                    Some hunters use bows to make it more challenging (fun for them), but it's better for the animal to use a gun. It's common for a whitetail hit with an arrow to run for hundreds of yards before bleeding to death. All the ones I've hit with my .30-06 haven't moved.

                    And good post, Lazarus, as usual.
                    In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

                    This message has been intercepted by the NSA, the only branch of government that listens.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
                      Some hunters use bows to make it more challenging (fun for them), but it's better for the animal to use a gun. It's common for a whitetail hit with an arrow to run for hundreds of yards before bleeding to death. All the ones I've hit with my .30-06 haven't moved.

                      And good post, Lazarus, as usual.
                      I really was just making a point. I honestly have no issues whatsoever with hunting for food. Or fishing, or non-CAFO farming. To me they are just different ways to bring food to table. However, the whole "morality" thing about veganism makes my ass hurt. If a person honestly believes that veganism is more healthy, then okay. But the moral thing is misplaced. Last I read, almost as much old growth forest has been cleared to grow soy beans as has been cleared to feedlot cows.

                      Laz's posts are often filled with information in a clear concise way. I had an Ecology instructor who used to call it the Bambi complex - he was referring to something slightly different, which is people who are anti-hunting while they are totally unaware of how much of the deer population starves to death, or how CAFO animals are treated before they become steaks. I think that vegans who think they are more moral than omnivores have just as much of a disconnect with their food as people who think ground beef magically appears wrapped in plastic.
                      "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                      B*tch-lite

                      Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
                        I really was just making a point. I honestly have no issues whatsoever with hunting for food. Or fishing, or non-CAFO farming. To me they are just different ways to bring food to table. However, the whole "morality" thing about veganism makes my ass hurt. If a person honestly believes that veganism is more healthy, then okay. But the moral thing is misplaced. Last I read, almost as much old growth forest has been cleared to grow soy beans as has been cleared to feedlot cows.

                        Laz's posts are often filled with information in a clear concise way. I had an Ecology instructor who used to call it the Bambi complex - he was referring to something slightly different, which is people who are anti-hunting while they are totally unaware of how much of the deer population starves to death, or how CAFO animals are treated before they become steaks. I think that vegans who think they are more moral than omnivores have just as much of a disconnect with their food as people who think ground beef magically appears wrapped in plastic.
                        Yep, those are my pretty much my opinions, as well. Your average hunter will know a lot more about the wildlife than your average vegan/vegetarian/PETA/anti-hunting person.
                        In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

                        This message has been intercepted by the NSA, the only branch of government that listens.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
                          Yep, those are my pretty much my opinions, as well. Your average hunter will know a lot more about the wildlife than your average vegan/vegetarian/PETA/anti-hunting person.
                          It's often the hunters who are more passionate about conserving wildlife than almost anyone else..

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                          • #28
                            Here in NZ our deer, pigs, wild goats and possums etc..... have no natural predators, so if we didnt hunt them we would have an even more serious problem than we do now. This country is overrun with wild animals, especially possums. Yes they are cute, and it scares the bejebbus out of you when they are staring you down, at night, in the middle of the road, but hell they eat out native birds eggs, and fauna and flora. I personally think that eating a pest would have to be the best use of resources.
                            And no I do not hunt, i do not know how to shoot a gun, however two of our daughters are great shots and will bring me deer, rabbits etc.
                            what i would like to say thou, is that guns are lethal in the wrong hands, so please PLEASE if you are wanting to learn how to process your own animals - learn from a master
                            "never let the truth get in the way of a good story "

                            ...small steps....

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jasperb View Post
                              Excellent post from lazarus.
                              +1

                              I would love to live like that!

                              I grew up on a farm with cow, pigs, sheep, rabbits, chickens, turkeys an orchard with apples, plums, peaches and a huge 1/2 acre garden. Walnut and almond trees that we sold the nuts from. We named our animals and slaughtered them. We canned fruit, vegetables and ate mostly what we grew. I loved that life and wish I could do it again.

                              My kids grew up in suburbia. Sadness to me. As adults they get grossed out when I talk about slaughtering of animals. They do understand it, but it is not how they grew up and I feel I have done a dis service to them in that respect.
                              44 F 5'5
                              SW 205.4
                              CW 180.4
                              GW 150

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                              • #30
                                Years ago - about 3 decades, when the farmers went on strike anyhow - my mother and I went up to Lynnhaven, MA where her parents lived, to give them a 50th wedding anniversary party. There was a run to support small farmers who were going on strike, and we got in it. Someone was doing a video, and they stopped us to interview us. We live on a farm. We were hearing people from Boston, and even my grandparent's neighbors say, "Food is manufactured. It comes from a factory. Peas and carrots and all vegetables are made in a factory, and then put in a can." They had nothing good to say about the thousands of small farmers who went on strike because they were losing their homes - their way of life. They had no idea IN REAL LIFE of where food originates. I was absolutely stunned!
                                SW: 205
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