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Who's worse the vegans or us?

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  • Who's worse the vegans or us?

    This idea occurred to me recently.

    This is in the wake of a post here by a sadly deluded (probably) young man, who seemed to have fallen under the influence of a cult. It turned out he'd also made a hit-and-run post at the 30 bananas website. (Why specifically us and the banana people? My guess is he'd probably read something by someone who attacked "extreme" diets on "biblical" grounds and who had cited both here and the bananas site as "opposite" examples. IOW, he got worked up and fired the bullets someone else made.)

    He made a silly post, raising objections to the Paleo Diet on the basis of naive and anachronistic readings of biblical texts. For example, when [St. Paul/Paul of Tarsus/Whatever-you-choose-to-call-him] objects to food avoidances, he's not thinking of the Paleo Diet. He's preaching against the "Judaizers". One has to remember that the first Christians were Jews but that Paul wished to preach to the Gentiles. Others argued that before becoming a Christian one had first to become a Jew. Paul argued that the Resurrection, in which he implicitly believed, made that otiose; and that, besides, it put an unnecessary stumbling block in the way of potential Gentile converts.

    From Paul's point of view, if a man (or someone whom he believed to be more than a man) had risen from the dead — which would be a world-changing event — then The Law is no longer important. It was as who should say, it's not "The Resurrection" that's important, but "The Resurrection + circumcision + ritual food practices (etc.)" …

    And so with the other quotations — which I shan't analyse lest even those who have read this far fall asleep. But my general point is this: if you don't know the historical context, as this poster didn't, then the quotation makes no sense.


    I was among several who responded to this poster. I hope I wasn't too hostile, although … maybe better to have left the post alone.

    Some posters were openly scornful and piled in on the man.

    The more I thought about it, the more uncomfortable I became. Re-reading the original post, it seemed to me that it was possible that the poster may have even had a learning disability. You could see an intelligence at work there, but there was something unusually clumsy and disjointed about it. The post also seemed to me to imply a lack of understanding on the part of the poster as to how it would be received. There's a classic sign: sheer lack of awareness as to how others think. So there's a thought. Maybe he was, and maybe he wasn't, but I wonder: does the Paleo World think it OK to mock the afflicted? We know nothing else about the poster. I suppose he finds solace in the cult. Perhaps he's broken up with his girlfriend; perhaps his mother has died. Or perhaps not … but it's a thought.



    How far does one defend the Paleo position against each and every attack? Even attacks from the (obviously) weak?

    I did read the man's post at the 30 bananas site, but I didn't look at the responses. But wouldn't it be embarrassing if the vegans were more courteous and understanding towards someone who disagreed with them than we were?



    So here's the experiment. Someone could make fake posts at both Paleo and Vegan sites criticising both from the same basis (whatever that might be) but in ways "appropriate" to each. They would then monitor the responses, and try to discern whether the Paleo people or the vegans were more accepting of disagreement. It would be a very rough experiment, but it would be kind of interesting ...
    Last edited by Lewis; 10-29-2013, 11:31 AM.

  • #2
    more embarrassing? there are jerks and friendlies on both sides (like all over the world), that doesn't matter

    i've seen people over there pile on someone because he wanted to eat meat but still maintain his principles and keep posting there with his friends

    i've seen people over here be kind to those who want to leave paleo. i've also seen people be dicks

    was it because flounce threads are ridiculous and pointless? was it because they felt their beliefs were being threatened? was it for a laugh?

    you'll get the same reactions there and here, people are people no matter what they put in their mouth
    beautiful
    yeah you are

    Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
    lol

    Comment


    • #3
      Agree with Blood.

      You can imagine the kind of reaction a Peat diet inspires! I just dont say anything when people talk about diet and what's healthy. I might suggest they take a liquid Vit D sup.

      Religion, politics, food. Dont mention them unless you want to fight.
      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

      - Ray Peat

      Comment


      • #4
        but if you DO want a fight....
        beautiful
        yeah you are

        Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
        lol

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
          but if you DO want a fight....
          Seriously, it used to be sex that you couldnt talk about. Food is WAY more controversial than that now... you never know who you're offending.

          I dont even tell restaurants "no gluten" anymore. I just eat around what I dont want
          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

          - Ray Peat

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lewis View Post
            How far does one defend the Paleo position against each and every attack? Even attacks from the (obviously) weak?
            How far?

            0.0cm.

            I eat what I want to eat and let others do the same. I don't ask others to justify or defend what they eat and I certainly don't justify or defend what I eat. What is there to defend?
            Meat is Prized, Wheat is Despised.

            Real Food - The REAL staff of life

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
              Seriously, it used to be sex that you couldnt talk about. Food is WAY more controversial than that now... you never know who you're offending.

              I dont even tell restaurants "no gluten" anymore. I just eat around what I dont want
              Really? It's one of the marks of a good restaurant to me that they have a bunch of GF mains on the menu.

              To the OP, I think that intolerence can come in many forms, and often is more vicious the weaker the idea it's defending.

              What you can't say
              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

              Griff's cholesterol primer
              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
              bloodorchid is always right

              Comment


              • #8
                I'd suspect you'd find the vegans to be intolerant of a thread about atheism in a way that we'd be very accepting. I think you'd find us to be more intolerant of faith-based belief systems in a way that vegans would be very accepting. I'll leave you to speculate why I'd make those assumptions.
                The Champagne of Beards

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  I'd suspect you'd find the vegans to be intolerant of a thread about atheism in a way that we'd be very accepting. I think you'd find us to be more intolerant of faith-based belief systems in a way that vegans would be very accepting. I'll leave you to speculate why I'd make those assumptions.
                  Because you think vegans can't be athiests? Or primals can't be christians? Seventh Day Adventists aren't the only vegans out there. Almost every vegan I know is an athiest.

                  I think you make those assumptions because you think that people fall into 'right' and 'wrong' groups, where those that agree with you are 'right' and thus likely to line up with how you think on most issues. Which I disagree with.
                  Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                  Griff's cholesterol primer
                  5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                  Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                  TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                  bloodorchid is always right

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                    Because you think vegans can't be athiests? Or primals can't be christians? Seventh Day Adventists aren't the only vegans out there. Almost every vegan I know is an athiest.

                    I think you make those assumptions because you think that people fall into 'right' and 'wrong' groups, where those that agree with you are 'right' and thus likely to line up with how you think on most issues. Which I disagree with.
                    No, you missed the mark entirely, merl. I think we Primal/Paleos tend to be more inclined to be evidence based decision-makers and the vegans tend to be more faith-based. Or, rather, that people who are more scientifically-minded and educated in the hard sciences understand that we're all but obligate omnivores, while the more idealistic folk might tend more toward veganism. I do think we're right, that's why I'm here, not on 30bananasaday.com or wherever those folks go to debate their own minutiae.
                    The Champagne of Beards

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think all humans fear and dislike that which they consider outside their 'tribe'. It's pretty damn natural. Some people are weird in that those who share their allegiance to their diet become the online version of their tribe. That is why fruitarians and primals alike get offended when their diets are attacked. On a level, our diets form a part of our identity. These forums give us a 'tribe' with which we share this identity, solidifying it. A threat to the diet is a threat to the tribe is a threat to our person. We treat it with suspicion or contempt when it dares to stumble into our 'territory', the place we consider our 'refuge' from CW dieting and other 'weird' diets.

                      Naught wrong with it. Unless you feel awkward about accepting it for what it is, of course.
                      --
                      Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

                      --
                      I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
                      I'd apologize, but...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I was raised by a vegan pagan mother and I am a primal and very actively practicing catholic. My sister is a Paleo pagan. My father is catholic SAD. I'm not sure that people's religious beliefs have very much to do with food choices. I think it varies person to person.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Liftinglife View Post
                          I was raised by a vegan pagan mother and I am a primal and very actively practicing catholic. My sister is a Paleo pagan. My father is catholic SAD. I'm not sure that people's religious beliefs have very much to do with food choices. I think it varies person to person.
                          Well of course it does. I'm not suggesting there's a perfect correlation, just that there might be a correlation at all.
                          The Champagne of Beards

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                            Well of course it does. I'm not suggesting there's a a perfect correlation, just that there might be a correlation at all.
                            Perhaps. Certain groups of people can easily be correlated to certain traits, maybe even non/religious sectors. I guess certain religious groups may be more likely to eat certain foods but I feel like that is more of a regional thing.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                              No, you missed the mark entirely, merl. I think we Primal/Paleos tend to be more inclined to be evidence based decision-makers and the vegans tend to be more faith-based.
                              Ok. I think that primals are based on 'digestion based', which is scientific evidence in the way you are saying. But I think that vegans are primarily coming from a moral stance. Which I guess I could see you saying is faith-based, but really, religion is only a subset of the moral sphere.

                              Do you think Plant Positive (who I think is Don Maetz) is approaching his diet from a faith based or scientific paradigm?

                              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                              Or, rather, that people who are more scientifically-minded and educated in the hard sciences understand that we're all but obligate omnivores, while the more idealistic folk might tend more toward veganism. I do think we're right, that's why I'm here, not on 30bananasaday.com or wherever those folks go to debate their own minutiae.
                              The tricky thing about science is that it's not as 'pure' as it's made out to be. People lock in on theories and invest themselves in them their whole lives. It's only when the (wrong) theories fail to attract new adherents that they wither and die out, but that can take a generation or more.
                              Last edited by magicmerl; 10-29-2013, 06:50 PM.
                              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                              Griff's cholesterol primer
                              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                              bloodorchid is always right

                              Comment

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