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  • #76
    Originally posted by fitmom View Post
    If conservatives had spent the last 20 years working on a Functional health care system, instead of masturbating to Ayn Rand, you might have valid reason for complaint.
    Truth is, after the Clinton's health plan failed in 1993, health care lobbies saw the writing on the wall--it was only a matter of time until the cash cow dried up. It's a credit to their maneuvering and lobbying efforts that they delayed the inevitable for 20 years--and even now, they still stand to make money. Obama's law passed in 2010. And people still seem suprised that it's happening. I don't get that.

    The only conservative plan I've seen in action is Romney's. Oh, and the 'shut up, pay me and die' plan we currently have.

    Set the sticky Rand book down, wipe your hands off on a towel, and propose AND implement, something better. We're waiting.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan
    >Conservatives
    >Ayn Rand

    wut?

    Universal mandate is the Republican alternative. It's still better than Obummercare.
    Make America Great Again

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Rojo View Post
      If we're talking about the NSA and Citizen's United, sure. Government healthcare? No.

      It makes little difference to me if my oppressor is public or private, mostly distinctions without a difference. My only safeguard against either one (actually the same) is democracy. Which apparently all you Rand-y cult types don't believe in.

      "When fascism comes to America, it will be called anti-fascism" ~ William S. Burroughs.
      "Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."
      H. L. Mencken
      Make America Great Again

      Comment


      • #78
        I will do the best I can to explain something better....but I suspect Any Rand, government teet when she was sick, morally repugnant pile of human refuse would disagree with it....I sure hope so. It's a sign that you have a soul.

        - All healthcare should be state-run, 100% of it. There is no reason, no constitutional backing, for the federal government to be involved....all states must, by law, keep a balanced budget. They cannot run trillion-dollar deficits like the feds can.
        - This would force all of the states, especially some of the southern states with healthcare costs that are astronomical, to actually pay for it. Texas requires almost double what Colorado does per patient, with lower taxes. That is only permissible by the current system.
        - Single-payer, but ALL in-state single-payer. This would force politicians to look at COST, rather than the red herrings we have now.
        - General tax money would not be used. Instead, a separate tax would be levied that people would get taken directly out of their checks, like medicare is now. This would incentivize, again, pushing down COST.
        - No more hospital admins getting paid 7 figures (very common), equipment costs that increase every year, etc. All admins would be elected by the state-legislatures, by congressional district.
        - All drug costs would be negotiated by these state panels. Generics being allowed into some key areas, such as in emergency care and hospice, would on its own save millions.

        It has to be remembered that the only people that NEED to get paid in all of this are the actual medical staff. There is no legitimate reason why hospital networks, Big Pharma, and equipment companies are able to take the bulk of the money. They are simply middlemen that often contribute little, or are even detrimental in some areas.

        Overall, pushing it all back to the states would guarantee innovation and pressure to lower costs. This would lead to things like nutrition and prevention taking a front seat more, with procedures on the way down.....what if the incentive for the hospital administrator was to keep taxes low by innovative care, rather than on the endless expansion of revenue as it currently is?

        It is actually very much fixable, because the problem is very much a simple one: everyone along the line of care is incentivized to make more money....so it should come as no surprise that costs continue to explode.

        The ideological stuff is pointless. What could we DO differently, in the real world, that would actually help people?

        It's like an exchange I saw on a political site once:
        Man #1: "We need to find a way to make sure our healthcare costs stop going up."
        Man #2: "That is a conservative starting ethos. I reject statist control into inherently democratic affairs."
        Man #1: "Ok. Whatever the hell that means. What do you suggest we do?"

        Convo ended right there Awesome.
        Last edited by TheyCallMeLazarus; 10-06-2013, 05:18 PM.
        "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
          "Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."
          H. L. Mencken
          Here's another Mencken quote: "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

          The "clear, simple, wrong" answer for Randtards is "the market". If we do away with popular democratic checks on corporations, do you think they will poison the air and water less or pay higher wages or make products safer? Grow up.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
            - General tax money would not be used. Instead, a separate tax would be levied that people would get taken directly out of their checks, like medicare is now.
            Medicare is 7% (3.5% individual 3.5% employer) IRRC. Why do we need an additional tax? That is my wife's question. She is an Israeli and all for gov't healthcare. She just does not understand why the same 7% they pay in Israel for birth - death healthcare is not enough here. Sure, there is a population size difference but is there a big enough difference to require an additional tax to the 7% I already pay and have yet to utilize?

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            • #81
              Wow. Someone simplistically explained to me that Obama care was going to be like Medicare in Australia.
              From what everyone is writing it's not similar is any way.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Rojo View Post
                Here's another Mencken quote: "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

                The "clear, simple, wrong" answer for Randtards is "the market". If we do away with popular democratic checks on corporations, do you think they will poison the air and water less or pay higher wages or make products safer? Grow up.
                State and corporate are the merged now. Do you honestly think they're not poisoning the air and water now? Do you honestly believe the government isn't actively protecting these corporations to turn a profit with a complete lack of care about the environment? Look around you, jesus christ.

                You do know about the inherent flaw of government, don't you? What you statists claim is the problem with anarchy, libertarianism, et al. Man's unquenchable thirst for power? We're witnessing it now, this country turned from one of the few free countries of the world at the time (the 1800s no central bank, etc.) into what it is now. You don't think that was the result of letting the government become too big? It wasn't us, the people, actively letting the government become too big -- it was the government overreaching in every aspect to gain power, and then becoming what we have now. Do you think we had any of these problems you're alluding to?

                I'd like to see your reasoning behind why you believe society can't function properly because man is inherently selfish, if you have one. Grow up, lol, ok.
                Make America Great Again

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                  Medicare is 7% (3.5% individual 3.5% employer) IRRC. Why do we need an additional tax? That is my wife's question. She is an Israeli and all for gov't healthcare. She just does not understand why the same 7% they pay in Israel for birth - death healthcare is not enough here. Sure, there is a population size difference but is there a big enough difference to require an additional tax to the 7% I already pay and have yet to utilize?
                  That 7% is all predicated on paying the current bill....what I am talking about is a sure-fire way to REDUCE the bill, and to remove profit from the equation. For me, nothing that keeps either of those in has a chance.

                  If all of those changes were instituted, it would essentially a "state-run Medicare for all" plan, with elected officials presiding over it. It would of course require a lot of rules against lobbying, term limits, etc, but it would work.

                  I cannot imagine that with all of those drivers on cost, the out of pocket would be higher. I am suggesting a SINGLE tax on all healthcare, to replace the death of a thousand cuts we have now. Overall it would end up much, much less.
                  "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                    Medicare is 7% (3.5% individual 3.5% employer) IRRC. Why do we need an additional tax? That is my wife's question. She is an Israeli and all for gov't healthcare. She just does not understand why the same 7% they pay in Israel for birth - death healthcare is not enough here. Sure, there is a population size difference but is there a big enough difference to require an additional tax to the 7% I already pay and have yet to utilize?
                    It probably should be enough, but we are cost structure are sky-high for reasons that Lazarus stated so completely.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                      Medicare is 7% (3.5% individual 3.5% employer) IRRC. Why do we need an additional tax? That is my wife's question. She is an Israeli and all for gov't healthcare. She just does not understand why the same 7% they pay in Israel for birth - death healthcare is not enough here. Sure, there is a population size difference but is there a big enough difference to require an additional tax to the 7% I already pay and have yet to utilize?
                      In Australia it's 1.5% and you can get exemptions (if you have private health care) and subsidies (if your low income). And out population is a lot smaller then America

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
                        I am suggesting a SINGLE tax on all healthcare, to replace the death of a thousand cuts we have now. Overall it would end up much, much less.
                        Originally posted by Rojo View Post
                        It probably should be enough, but we are cost structure are sky-high for reasons that Lazarus stated so completely.

                        Thanks to you both. A tax to replace those currently in place I might favor. I just do not see it happening. I see the current taxes + additional taxes for the government to buy votes with. I mean, care for the masses.




                        Originally posted by Hannakb View Post
                        In Australia it's 1.5% and you can get exemptions (if you have private health care) and subsidies (if your low income). And out population is a lot smaller then America

                        Note to self...move to Australia. Healthcare and interesting reptiles, count me in.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                          State and corporate are the merged now. Do you honestly think they're not poisoning the air and water now?
                          Of course they are. That's because government is often captured by the industries it's supposed to regulate. So the solution is to get rid of the government altogether?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Another reason it might be high is that it's only for the elderly. The taxpayer saves private insurers a lot by taking on the most expensive market segment.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              See it HAPPENING!?!?!?!

                              ahahahahahahahaha........

                              Have you ever been playing Monopoly, and the person with ALL of the hotels, bankrupting everyone, just decides they are going to change the rules and start giving away their money, their assets?

                              No. Me neither.

                              "Hey, I just spent the past 50 years setting up this perfect system. See, everyone needs it, and everyone accepts it has to cost a little bit....so, let's get in that business. We will brand ourselves with things like 'free market', 'HMO', and 'healthcare network'. We will slowly infiltrate the government, and actually convince people that we are necessary. No, we have no medical training, but make it so they NEED us....imagine buddy.... one day we will WRITE A LAW that forces people to give us money."

                              Give that all up? No chance. If power has proven anything, its that no one gives it to you. You have to take it.
                              "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
                                See it HAPPENING!?!?!?!

                                ahahahahahahahaha........If power has proven anything, its that no one gives it to you. You have to take it.
                                So we agree. It wont happen. As for taking it back, some crazy f*ck already shot our Rep in the head and that direct approach didn't change much. Given my electoral choices are shit sandwich and shit sandwich with cheese, how do you suggest said taking back happens? (In my lifetime that is).

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