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  • Originally posted by Goldensparrow View Post
    What?! My husband had surgery recently and yes they required everything up front....if they can do that then this isnt that much more of a stretch. And I see the effects of Obamacare on a daily basis and can vouch for the principles behind this isnt National Enquirer BS is socialism....period.

    Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app
    Thank you for confirming this information. I was very skeptical when I saw this, but confirmed the information with multiple sources.

    This is going to bankrupt a LOT of people who have huge deductibles & substantial copays typical of the Bronze package.
    The closer we look, the worse this disaster becomes. I honestly think Obama Care sends the USA into a depression. With almost 50 million people already on foodstamps, I'm afraid millions more struggling families will drop into poverty. Socialism doesn't work, never did work & never will work.

    Last edited by Grizz; 10-28-2013, 01:00 PM.


    • It is not illegal to require payment BEFORE services, but there is one BIG caveat:

      You must also require EVERYONE to pay beforehand. In other words, I can deny to do a procedure for you if you cannot pay, but only if I am taking money up front for everyone. Your ability to pay cannot affect my care decisions.
      "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."


      • Full List of Obamacare Tax Hikes
        More horrors from Obama

        WASHINGTON, DC -- Obamacare contains 20 new or higher taxes on American families and small businesses. Arranged by their respective sizes according to CBO scores, below is the total list of all $500 billion-plus in tax hikes (over the next ten years) in Obamacare, their effective dates, and where to find them in the bill.

        $123 Billion: Surtax on Investment Income (Takes effect Jan. 2013): A new, 3.8 percent surtax on investment income earned in households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single). This would result in the following top tax rates on investment income:

        Capital Gains - Dividends - Other*

        15% -15% -35%

        23.8% - 43.4% -43.4%

        *Other unearned income includes (for surtax purposes) gross income from interest, annuities, royalties, net rents, and passive income in partnerships and Subchapter-S corporations. It does not include municipal bond interest or life insurance proceeds, since those do not add to gross income. It does not include active trade or business income, fair market value sales of ownership in pass-through entities, or distributions from retirement plans. The 3.8% surtax does not apply to non-resident aliens. (Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 87-93)

        $86 Billion: Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax (Takes effect Jan. 2013): Current law and changes:

        First $200,000
        ($250,000 Married)

        All Remaining Wages

        Current Law

        2.9% self-employed

        2.9% self-employed

        Obamacare Tax Hike

        2.9% self-employed

        3.8% self-employed

        Bill: PPACA, Reconciliation Act; Page: 2000-2003; 87-93

        $65 Billion: Individual Mandate Excise Tax and Employer Mandate Tax (Both taxes take effect Jan. 2014):

        Individual: Anyone not buying “qualifying” health insurance as defined by Obama-appointed HHS bureaucrats must pay an income surtax according to the higher of the following

        1 Adult - 2 Adults - 3+ Adults

        1% AGI/$95 1% AGI/$190 1% AGI/$285

        2% AGI/$325 2% AGI/$650 2% AGI/$975

        2016 +
        2.5% AGI/$695 2.5% AGI/$1390 2.5% AGI/$2085

        Exemptions for religious objectors, undocumented immigrants, prisoners, those earning less than the poverty line, members of Indian tribes, and hardship cases (determined by HHS). Bill: PPACA; Page: 317-337

        Employer: If an employer does not offer health coverage, and at least one employee qualifies for a health tax credit, the employer must pay an additional non-deductible tax of $2000 for all full-time employees. Applies to all employers with 50 or more employees. If any employee actually receives coverage through the exchange, the penalty on the employer for that employee rises to $3000. If the employer requires a waiting period to enroll in coverage of 30-60 days, there is a $400 tax per employee ($600 if the period is 60 days or longer). Bill: PPACA; Page: 345-346

        (Combined score of individual and employer mandate tax penalty: $65 billion)

        $60.1 Billion: Tax on Health Insurers (Takes effect Jan. 2014): Annual tax on the industry imposed relative to health insurance premiums collected that year. Phases in gradually until 2018. Fully-imposed on firms with $50 million in profits. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,986-1,993

        $32 Billion: Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans (Takes effect Jan. 2018): Starting in 2018, new 40 percent excise tax on “Cadillac” health insurance plans ($10,200 single/$27,500 family). Higher threshold ($11,500 single/$29,450 family) for early retirees and high-risk professions. CPI +1 percentage point indexed. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,941-1,956

        $23.6 Billion: “Black liquor” tax hike (Took effect in 2010) This is a tax increase on a type of bio-fuel. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 105

        $22.2 Billion: Tax on Innovator Drug Companies (Took effect in 2010): $2.3 billion annual tax on the industry imposed relative to share of sales made that year. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,971-1,980

        $20 Billion: Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers (Takes effect Jan. 2013): Medical device manufacturers employ 360,000 people in 6000 plants across the country. This law imposes a new 2.3% excise tax. Exempts items retailing for <$100. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,980-1,986

        $15.2 Billion: High Medical Bills Tax (Takes effect Jan 1. 2013): Currently, those facing high medical expenses are allowed a deduction for medical expenses to the extent that those expenses exceed 7.5 percent of adjusted gross income (AGI). The new provision imposes a threshold of 10 percent of AGI. Waived for 65+ taxpayers in 2013-2016 only. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,994-1,995

        $13.2 Billion: Flexible Spending Account Cap – aka “Special Needs Kids Tax” (Takes effect Jan. 2013): Imposes cap on FSAs of $2500 (now unlimited). Indexed to inflation after 2013. There is one group of FSA owners for whom this new cap will be particularly cruel and onerous: parents of special needs children. There are thousands of families with special needs children in the United States, and many of them use FSAs to pay for special needs education. Tuition rates at one leading school that teaches special needs children in Washington, D.C. (National Child Research Center) can easily exceed $14,000 per year. Under tax rules, FSA dollars can be used to pay for this type of special needs education. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,388-2,389

        $5 Billion: Medicine Cabinet Tax (Took effect Jan. 2011): Americans no longer able to use health savings account (HSA), flexible spending account (FSA), or health reimbursement (HRA) pre-tax dollars to purchase non-prescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin). Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,957-1,959

        $4.5 Billion: Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage in coordination with Medicare Part D (Takes effect Jan. 2013) Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,994

        $4.5 Billion: Codification of the “economic substance doctrine” (Took effect in 2010): This provision allows the IRS to disallow completely-legal tax deductions and other legal tax-minimizing plans just because the IRS deems that the action lacks “substance” and is merely intended to reduce taxes owed. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 108-113

        $2.7 Billion: Tax on Indoor Tanning Services (Took effect July 1, 2010): New 10 percent excise tax on Americans using indoor tanning salons. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,397-2,399

        $1.4 Billion: HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike (Took effect Jan. 2011): Increases additional tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10 to 20 percent, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10 percent. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,959

        $0.6 Billion: $500,000 Annual Executive Compensation Limit for Health Insurance Executives (Takes effect Jan. 2013): Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,995-2,000

        $0.4 Billion: Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike (Took effect in 2010): The special tax deduction in current law for Blue Cross/Blue Shield companies would only be allowed if 85 percent or more of premium revenues are spent on clinical services. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,004

        $ Negligible: Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals (Took effect in 2010): $50,000 per hospital if they fail to meet new "community health assessment needs," "financial assistance," and "billing and collection" rules set by HHS. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,961-1,971

        $ Negligible: Employer Reporting of Insurance on W-2 (Took effect in Jan. 2012): Preamble to taxing health benefits on individual tax returns. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,957

        The list is better seen in this link:
        Full List of Obamacare Tax Hikes | Congressman Jeff Duncan

        Details on the tax on the sale of our house here

        Lets give ourselves back to England. Taxation without representation was better!

        Last edited by Grizz; 10-28-2013, 12:58 PM.


        • I don't know if anyone noticed the BLATANT THEFT by Obama on Seniors by Obama & the Democrats

          Capital Gains

          - Dividends

          - Other includes rental income and other sources of income*

          *Other unearned income includes (for surtax purposes) gross income from interest, annuities, royalties, net rents, and passive income in partnerships and Subchapter-S corporations. It does not include municipal bond interest or life insurance proceeds, since those do not add to gross income. It does not include active trade or business income, fair market value sales of ownership in pass-through entities, or distributions from retirement plans. The 3.8% surtax does not apply to non-resident aliens. (Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 87-93)

          $86 Billion: Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax (Takes effect Jan. 2013): Current law and changes:

          Millions of retired people depend on dividends, income & interest on their investments to survive, and now Obama & the Democrats are STEALING almost half of their income and sending them into poverty.
          It was horrible enough that the Federal Reserve has destroyed interest income by slashing rates to near ZERO, and now Obama is taxing away what little is left.

          EVERYONE gets robbed on the huge increase in the medicare payroll tax !

          On the news this morning:
          108 MILLION PEOPLE are on Welfare ! I predict that millions more will be forced into welfare rolls by the Democrats new taxes for Obama Care.
          314 million people in the U.S., legal and non-legal; 108 million of them on federal welfare (not inc. SS or Medicare) |
          This is a rocketing downward spiral where those who are left working must pay escalating taxes for those who go on the welfare rolls ! Sooner or later, we reach the tilting point where ATLAS SHRUGS.

          Also in the news this morning,
          the administration ADMITS TO LYING about Obama's Promise that if you liked your doctor & insurance, you can keep it under Obama Care !
          White House admits ObamaCare lie | New York Post
          Of course we know that Obama will blame the insurance companies & call for a single payer system. We also know when Obama is lying: His lips are moving. If he could find any way blame Bush, he would. We have learned that Obama blames everyone but himself for the disasters he is creating.

          What we have discovered in this thread:
          Obama Care is unacceptable by every possible measure.

          Last edited by Grizz; 10-29-2013, 07:20 AM.


          • California residents are rebelling against Obamacare, with thousands shocked by the sticker price and rethinking their support, saying that what seemed wonderful in principle is not translating into reality.

            Jennifer Harris, Fullerton resident, said she was shocked to receive a letter from her Health Net Inc. insurer that her plan — which costs $98 a month — was being dropped. The cheapest plan she said in the Los Angeles Times that she found is $238 a month.
            “It doesn’t seem right to make the middle class pay so much more in order to give health insurance to everybody else,” she said, in the report. “This increase is simply not affordable.”

            ‘I was all for Obamacare until I found out I was paying for it,’ ” Ms. Kehaly said

            Rest of the story:
            California resident:

            People are learning about the Progressive Democrats socialism: Tax the snots out of people who work & give it to those who don't or won't.

            Obama knew as early as July 2010 that 40 to 67 percent of customers will not be able to keep their policy.
            14 million consumers who buy their insurance individually will be forced into expensive Obama Care:
            Obama Knew Most Americans Would Not Be Able To Keep Their Existing Insurance Under Obamacare As Early As 2010 | Zero Hedge

            Bait and Switch: Obama Knew He Sold Obamacare on a Laundry List of Lies:
            Last edited by Grizz; 10-29-2013, 09:25 AM.


            • My brain is starting to go numb.



              • Originally posted by Grizz View Post
                ‘I was all for Obamacare until I found out I was paying for it,’ ” Ms. Kehaly said

                Duh!....and she's not the only one voting without knowing. (bangs head against wall ~ repeatedly!)
                Some people just need a sympathetic pat... On the head... With a hammer.


                • (NaturalNews) It is crucial for the White House that the website continue to fail, because once the site actually starts functioning, Americans are going to be hit with such devastating rate shock that the Obama administration may never recover.

                  Obamacare is named the "Affordable Care Act," after all, and the President promised the rates would be "as low as a phone bill." But I just received a confirmed letter from a friend in Texas showing a 539% rate increase on an existing policy that's been in good standing for years.

                  As the letter reveals (see below), the cost for this couple's policy under Humana is increasing from $212.10 per month to $1,356.60 per month. This is for a couple in good health whose combined income is less than $70K -- a middle-class family, in other words.

                  That's a 539% rate increase!

                  $1,356.60 per month is not "affordable" health care. It's monopolistic price gouging mandated by the Obama administration and enforced essentially at gunpoint. This isn't health care; it's highway robbery.

                  To clarify: this increased rate policy is not "under", but the 539% rate increase is being caused because of Obamacare's new rules and requirements. If Obamacare hadn't become law, this couple could have continued spending $212 per month. Instead, they're now going to have to spend $1,356 per month or sign up for Obamacare and hope to get a better rate there (if the website even functions long enough to enroll).......

                  Millions are losing health care coverage thanks to Obamacare

                  All across America, people are getting hit with letters like these. Some letters inform you that you'll have to pay double, triple or quadruple the current rates; other letters tell you your coverage is being dropped completely. According to one health policy expert, 16 million Americans will lose their health insurance due to Obamacare.

                  This mass wipeout of health insurance coverage is already under way. So far 1.5 million Americans have already lost their health insurance thanks to Obamacare. That number is a large multiple of how many people have actually enrolled in Obamacare. (Far more people are losing health insurance than gaining it.)

                  Everything about Obamacare has been a blatant lie, it seems: the Affordable Care Act is not affordable; you can't necessarily keep your doctor; and you can't even shop for policies because the website continues to crash worse than a low-budget carnival ride.

                  It's so bad that even Saturday Night Live, which practically functions as the comedy mouthpiece for the Democratic party, tore into the fiasco with a blistering comedy skit that paints HHS secretary Kathleen Sebelius as a delusional, out-of-touch Obamacare apologist. Watch it at:

                  SNL Opening Kathleen Sebelius Healthcare Website Mocked Saturday Night Live 10 26 13 - YouTube

                  Obamacare has five critical, show-stopper problems, each of which could independently bring down the whole system

                  Problem #1) The disastrous website which still doesn't work.

                  Problem #2) RATE SHOCK as Americans realize they are going to have to pay up to 539% more just to keep their current health insurance plans.

                  Problem #3) The massive, widespread cancellation of existing health insurance policies because of Obamacare. Millions of Americans are losing their health care coverage right now...

                  Problem #4) Critical failures communicating insurance status to doctors, hospitals and health service providers (this hasn't even been tested, and once it is initiated, it will crash hard).

                  Problem #5) Massive hacker theft of personal data thanks to disastrous security engineered into Expect to see widespread theft of personal data (social security numbers, bank account information and more) if the website ever starts to function. The only reason personal data hasn't yet been stolen from the site is because the servers crash too quickly for hackers to get through.

                  Bottom line: Obamacare is an economic apocalypse for America

                  Beyond the lies and campaign promises, the real ramifications of Obamacare are:

                  • Widespread job losses as employers cut hours and fire workers they can no longer afford to keep on the payroll thanks to Obamacare.

                  • Millions of Americans losing their existing health insurance coverage.

                  • Insane rate increases under a monopoly system that forces Americans to pay exorbitant fees to a cabal of insurance companies and drug companies.

                  • The widespread medical bankruptcy of American workers, families and employers.

                  This is all by design, and it was all made possible by the people who got suckered into voting for a President who deliberately seeks to utterly destroy America.

                  I have skipped over major parts of this news story. For the complete details see this link:
                  Learn more: RATE SHOCK: Obamacare causing 539% increase in health insurance costs for Texans (see proof)



                  • The simple fact is that the tidal wave is coming and the American middle class is right in it's path. We're screwed. More liberties removed. That's all we need to know.


                    • The fallout from disillusioned and formerly-faithful socialist-leaning younger people is very amusing to observe on facebook
                      "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                      Jack london, "Before Adam"


                      • I support healthcare reform, but reality is, this plan is going to cost us. We just found out our premium is going up 50%. That's a major hit. We'll see what happens long term, but it won't last if no one can get online to subscribe.


                        • Originally posted by APPLEGIRL View Post
                          The simple fact is that the tidal wave is coming and the American middle class is right in it's path. We're screwed. More liberties removed. That's all we need to know.
                          This is just the beginning, not the end. I am convinced that Obama Care will ignite a Political Firestorm between the states & feds that has been unprecedented since the Civil War. Already 36 states are breaking from Obamacare. Do you really think the American People are going to lay down and take this BS? I don't think so. No way is America going to buckle under to Obama's Dictatorship. I am just among the first to speak up. Millions will follow after me. IMO, the people will just say to HELL with this unjust law. I'm gathering links to prove the IRS is toothless on this issue.

                          I can't predict what may happen, but I'm expecting riots and the reason why Obama has started his own civilian Military, Just as strong & just as powerful as the US Military. His promise video is here:
                          A Chilling Proposal by Barack Obama - YouTube

                          IMO, he is looking for an excuse to declare Martial Law to put his civilian military in power. The Dept of Homeland Security (DHS) is his military, and has been loading up on ammunition & military equipment.
                          In a puzzling, unexplained development, the Obama administration has been buying and storing vast amounts of ammunition in recent months, with the Department of Homeland Security just placing another order for an additional 21.6 million rounds.
                          Several other agencies of the federal government also began buying large quantities of bullets last year. The Social Security Administration, for instance, not normally considered on the frontlines of anything but dealing with seniors, explained that its purchase of millions of rounds was for special agents' required quarterly weapons qualifications. They must be pretty poor shots.

                          Read More At Investor's Business Daily: Why are the feds loading up on so much ammo? by Andrew Malcolm -
                          Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
                          Last edited by Grizz; 10-29-2013, 02:49 PM.


                          • Fortunately, I don't have to worry about rate increases - I don't have insurance through my company yet!

                            For me, at 30k, it looks like it'll take about 7% of my income - 2,200USD - if I got something through the exchange. That's not terrible. I'm not sure how my co-workers will be impacted. Next month they begin their enrollment for updating their plans, so I'll be more able to comment then.

                            Unfortunately, these are not great times for defense contractors. You'd think we'd be FLUSH, given the perpetual war. Unfortunately, in a show to shuffle around costs, defense contracts are going more towards what we call "Lowest Cost Technically Acceptable" - i.e. super low bidders. This time last year my company lost a contract we'd held since the 70's - our largest contract - and it rippled throughout and has made this year crazy. Fortunately I work at a remote site, so I haven't had to endure the shakeups at HQ personally.

                            Just got an email today telling us we're not expecting it to get better. This is the new normal. Defense usually follows a boom/bust cycle depending on the wars we're fighting. We are fighting the longest one we've ever been involved in and it's bust. Not great - this boom should still be going, all things considered.

                            The times, they are a-changing.



                            • The question for today:
                              WHY ARE UP TO 15 MILLION LOSING THEIR INSURANCE???

                              Simple answer: Those policies are too cheap, and do not cover "Everything."
                              You MUST pay for everyone else's health problems, even for things you don't want or need, or not even related to your gender. People are suddenly learning what SOCIALISM really is. You WILL pay for everyone else.

                              Obama Insurance must be expensive to pay for services required by the LAW. In other words everyone must pay for:
                              * Annual doctor visit for each member of the family
                              * Pregnancy, Abortions, newborn care, even if you are a man or a woman over 60
                              * Prescription drugs
                              * Mental Health Services
                              * Rehabilitations
                              * All pre-existing conditions for Everyone
                              * Illegal for insurance do drop your coverage or raise rates if you become a high risk
                              * Disabilities in children under the age of 19
                              * Free Extensive Preventive Screenings
                              * Free extensive Preventive health services for women includes contraceptives
                              * Free extensive Preventive health services for children
                              * Free health screenings for adults
                              * Ends lifetime & yearly dollar limits
                              * We must pay for those who can't afford insurance
                              * Cover all applicants and offer the same rates regardless of pre-existing conditions, age or gender.
                              * Rates could skyrocket if not enough young & healthy adults don't sign up.
                              * Everyone must pay for others adult children up to 26 years old, married or not, living at home or not
                              * force millions of younger, healthier Americans to pay more for insurance than they receive in benefits to subsidize others

                              Details covered in the following links:
                              Health Insurance 101: A Starter Course on the Affordable Care Act | Veer Gidwaney
                              Where's The Outrage From Young Americans About Obama's Health Reforms? - Forbes

                              I have not gone into the deductibles or copays - I'm trying to keep this complex subject simple.
                              Maybe someone can chime in to help explain this train wreck.

                              So bottom line-this is VERY expensive insurance that all of us (with jobs) are expected to pay, some examples:
                              * 27 Year Old must pay the average premium is $266.20/month or $3,194.40 per year for single coverage.
                              * The “average” 50 year old premium, again, for single coverage, is $452.87, or $5,434.44/year.
                              * these premiums are for non-smokers (smoker premiums are grossly surcharged with reports being 1.5x the above)
                              * Person with HIV who costs ACA $30,000 or more in treatment costs each year only pays $3,200 yearly.

                              Last edited by Grizz; 10-30-2013, 11:13 AM.


                              • WHAT ARE THE DOCTORS DOING?

                                DIRECT PRIMARY CARE
                                Dr. Michael Ciampi in Portland: no Medicare, Medicaid or Obamacare & no private insurance, he posts his fees online to boot.
                                Physician’s radical response to Obamacare getting attention - BizPac Review

                                Dr. Ryan Neuhofel has gone to this model to avoid the cost of paperwork. Ingrown toenail is $50 & $200 with insurance. He charges for his services according to an online price list that's as straightforward as a restaurant menu.
                                The Obamacare Revolt: Physicians Fight Back Against the Bureaucratization of Health Care -

                                14 percent said they would not participate in Obamacare, 16 percent said they did not know.Nearly 30 percent of doctors responding to the MGMA survey said they planned to participate in the exchanges. MGMA research included responses from more than 1,000 medical groups in which more than 47,500 physicians participate.
                                40 Percent Of Doctor Practices Unsure About Obamacare Exchanges - Forbes

                                Obamacare Has Doctors Confused And Skeptical About The Future: Survey
                                Obamacare Has Doctors Confused And Skeptical About Future: Survey

                                Bottom line, I think it is too soon to get much more than "Confused & Skeptical." We don't even know if or when the site problems will get fixed. The whole program could be delayed or even cancelled if too many states revolt against it.

                                It is DEAD anyway if not enough young & healthy people sign up. My opinion is that young healthy people ignore the whole thing, penalties & all.

                                Last edited by Grizz; 10-30-2013, 11:36 AM.